TheSamba.com :: View topic - Colorado just deemed my conversion illegal

Mon Jul 18, 2022 6:26 pm

rmcd wrote: GoEverywhere wrote: Jeffrey Lee wrote: Why is an older Vanagon not grandfathered in, like a '68 Camaro? In fact, I presume the Subaru conversion is *cleaner* from an emissions standard than the OG WBX.

Is it possible to register it as a Collector's vehicle? Granted, some states place heavy usage restrictions on Collector's vehicles; but it may be worth looking into.

Thats what I was wondering, here in Oregon a Vanagon only has to pass the emissions for the year it was built for. They NEVER retroactively change the emissions rules on vehicles that weren't built to that standard here.

Here is an Oregon PSA if the OP doesn't mind.

Oregon is next. Er' it is already happening.

I have personal experience here and I spoke directly with the fleet manager who was very helpful.

In Oregon it is illegal to swap a Subaru motor of any kind or year into a VW. However, it is legal to swap any newer version (cleaner being the idea) of a US-legal VW-manufactured motor into your van.

The tech will not test your vehicle if they see your subaru sticker or you tell them you have a non-VW motor.

The emissions laws for fleet testing are different than privately owned vehicles in Oregon, I did however go look up the Oregon statute on emissions testing as I'd not looked at it in a couple of years. Its here if you're nerdy like me: https://secure.sos.state.or.us/oard/viewSingleRule.action?ruleVrsnRsn=274415

There *IS* a new statute in there that I don't believe was there recently that addresses engine swaps. It seems if you swap for a newer Subie engine you are now subject to that engine's DEQ requirements as it was originally manufactured. Which is pretty similar to what the Colorado statutes looked like. There's no provision for banning based on it being from a different manufacturer, just that you have to meet that engine's emissions. Here's the relevant statute.

(6) For a 1981 or newer model year vehicle in which the original engine has been replaced, the emission test standards and applicable emissions control equipment for the year, make, and model of the vehicle body or chassis (per registration or title) or replacement engine, whichever is newer, apply. For those diesel powered vehicles that have been converted to operate on gasoline or gasoline equivalent fuel(s), the emission test standards and applicable emission control equipment for the year, make, and model of the gasoline equivalent powered engine as originally manufactured, for the vehicle body or chassis (per the registration) or replacement engine, whichever is newer, apply.

Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:26 pm

GoEverywhere wrote: rmcd wrote: GoEverywhere wrote: Jeffrey Lee wrote: Why is an older Vanagon not grandfathered in, like a '68 Camaro? In fact, I presume the Subaru conversion is *cleaner* from an emissions standard than the OG WBX.

Is it possible to register it as a Collector's vehicle? Granted, some states place heavy usage restrictions on Collector's vehicles; but it may be worth looking into.

Thats what I was wondering, here in Oregon a Vanagon only has to pass the emissions for the year it was built for. They NEVER retroactively change the emissions rules on vehicles that weren't built to that standard here.

Here is an Oregon PSA if the OP doesn't mind.

Oregon is next. Er' it is already happening.

I have personal experience here and I spoke directly with the fleet manager who was very helpful.

In Oregon it is illegal to swap a Subaru motor of any kind or year into a VW. However, it is legal to swap any newer version (cleaner being the idea) of a US-legal VW-manufactured motor into your van.

The tech will not test your vehicle if they see your subaru sticker or you tell them you have a non-VW motor.

The emissions laws for fleet testing are different than privately owned vehicles in Oregon, I did however go look up the Oregon statute on emissions testing as I'd not looked at it in a couple of years. Its here if you're nerdy like me: https://secure.sos.state.or.us/oard/viewSingleRule.action?ruleVrsnRsn=274415

There *IS* a new statute in there that I don't believe was there recently that addresses engine swaps. It seems if you swap for a newer Subie engine you are now subject to that engine's DEQ requirements as it was originally manufactured. Which is pretty similar to what the Colorado statutes looked like. There's no provision for banning based on it being from a different manufacturer, just that you have to meet that engine's emissions. Here's the relevant statute.

(6) For a 1981 or newer model year vehicle in which the original engine has been replaced, the emission test standards and applicable emissions control equipment for the year, make, and model of the vehicle body or chassis (per registration or title) or replacement engine, whichever is newer, apply. For those diesel powered vehicles that have been converted to operate on gasoline or gasoline equivalent fuel(s), the emission test standards and applicable emission control equipment for the year, make, and model of the gasoline equivalent powered engine as originally manufactured, for the vehicle body or chassis (per the registration) or replacement engine, whichever is newer, apply.

Maybe it better now? My conversation was maybe 3 or 4 years ago? I gave my notes to the new owner so I can’t confirm.

I would still not flaunt any motor conversion at the test station.

Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:27 pm

rmcd wrote: GoEverywhere wrote: rmcd wrote: GoEverywhere wrote: Jeffrey Lee wrote: Why is an older Vanagon not grandfathered in, like a '68 Camaro? In fact, I presume the Subaru conversion is *cleaner* from an emissions standard than the OG WBX.

Is it possible to register it as a Collector's vehicle? Granted, some states place heavy usage restrictions on Collector's vehicles; but it may be worth looking into.

Thats what I was wondering, here in Oregon a Vanagon only has to pass the emissions for the year it was built for. They NEVER retroactively change the emissions rules on vehicles that weren't built to that standard here.

Here is an Oregon PSA if the OP doesn't mind.

Oregon is next. Er' it is already happening.

I have personal experience here and I spoke directly with the fleet manager who was very helpful.

In Oregon it is illegal to swap a Subaru motor of any kind or year into a VW. However, it is legal to swap any newer version (cleaner being the idea) of a US-legal VW-manufactured motor into your van.

The tech will not test your vehicle if they see your subaru sticker or you tell them you have a non-VW motor.

The emissions laws for fleet testing are different than privately owned vehicles in Oregon, I did however go look up the Oregon statute on emissions testing as I'd not looked at it in a couple of years. Its here if you're nerdy like me: https://secure.sos.state.or.us/oard/viewSingleRule.action?ruleVrsnRsn=274415

There *IS* a new statute in there that I don't believe was there recently that addresses engine swaps. It seems if you swap for a newer Subie engine you are now subject to that engine's DEQ requirements as it was originally manufactured. Which is pretty similar to what the Colorado statutes looked like. There's no provision for banning based on it being from a different manufacturer, just that you have to meet that engine's emissions. Here's the relevant statute.

(6) For a 1981 or newer model year vehicle in which the original engine has been replaced, the emission test standards and applicable emissions control equipment for the year, make, and model of the vehicle body or chassis (per registration or title) or replacement engine, whichever is newer, apply. For those diesel powered vehicles that have been converted to operate on gasoline or gasoline equivalent fuel(s), the emission test standards and applicable emission control equipment for the year, make, and model of the gasoline equivalent powered engine as originally manufactured, for the vehicle body or chassis (per the registration) or replacement engine, whichever is newer, apply.

Maybe it better now? My conversation was maybe 3 or 4 years ago? I gave my notes to the new owner so I can’t confirm.

I would still not flaunt any motor conversion at the test station.

For sure. As far as they're concerned my vehicle is 100% stock. They have no reason to know or care what I've done to it as long as it meets emissions.

Mon Jul 18, 2022 7:37 pm

@rmcd
This sucks. And there's no logic to it.
So, I wonder if it's legal to perform the service for out of state folks.

Mon Jul 18, 2022 11:02 pm

rmcd wrote:
In Oregon it is illegal to swap a Subaru motor of any kind or year into a VW.

I. Like. That.

Tue Jul 19, 2022 12:12 am

Zeitgeist 13 wrote: rmcd wrote:
In Oregon it is illegal to swap a Subaru motor of any kind or year into a VW.

I. Like. That.

😀😀😀

Penalty fr thinkingoutside the Boxer

Tue Jul 19, 2022 5:46 pm

Crankey wrote: @rmcd
This sucks. And there's no logic to it.
So, I wonder if it's legal to perform the service for out of state folks.

In speaking with the fleet manager he was explaining testing of the vehicle for department of quality standards. So ... I think maintenance is a whole different deal in this context.

Then there is this trend. I'm guessing we can thank VW Porsche Audi Mercedes and every other mfr that cheated for the spot light.

Then again. We all kind of need to breath and have clean water. The laws are there because collectively we are morons. Myself included.

https://www.thedrive.com/news/32533/diesel-brother...-emissions

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/25/climate/diesel-trucks-air-pollution.html

Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:06 pm

In Georgia they wouldn't even test your vehicle because of its older age. Which to me is ass backwards... it's the older vehicles that the produce the most pollution. Who here hasn't had an older carbureted truck or car drive by them in the opposite direction and smelled all the fumes?! :shock:

You can't really register it out of state and continue to drive it in Colorado indefinitely. States usually make you register in the state you're living within 30 days of moving there.

Why does a testing shop even know you have a conversion anyway? How did they find that out?

Tue Jul 19, 2022 7:45 pm

I live in California and have dealt with the ongoing saga of old VWs and CARB for years. Eons ago I would struggle to get my '70 Westfalia to pass, then the laws changed to the current 76 and newer regime. My own Vanagon is still running the 2.1 WBX. It's a strong engine and is well taken care of. I'd swap it in a min if I could put a low mile, late model Subaru in legally. With CARB rules, there's only 2 approaches that I know of:

1. Swap the entire motor, ECU, exhaust, all emissions gear, etc. Test as the donor car. If that donor car was OBD2, you're in for it.
2. Utilize a kit or system that has an Executive Order making it legal if setup as specified in the EO. For Subaru in a Vanagon, that's the KEP setup and a 2.2L (they got this legal a long, long time ago).

For me, with a WBX in good condition, I'm not really interested in rebuilding a 25 year old 2.2 Subaru that has 200K+ on it to install with all of the conversion headaches as well. If I could do an easy swap with a 50K mile motor from a wreck, and just test the tailpipe, I'd do it immediately. Someday if the WBX croaks....

KEP got their EO certified in the 90s when the OBD1 2.2 was a current engine. They clearly don't have the interest in trying to do it again with a newer motor. Maybe as CARB is implemented in other states some of the Vanagon conversion shops will look into getting an EO certified for the newer motors. It's a tough process.

If you can't find any other way, I've heard of putting the heads and intake systems, etc from a 2.2L on a 2.5L and using the KEP EO. Most smog folks that would catch that it's a Subaru swap won't be able to tell you have a frankensubi. The emissions systems look like the picture in the book. Not ideal, but maybe something to look into if you have to.

Tue Jul 19, 2022 8:00 pm

Reading through this thread, here's a thought I haven't seen that you perhaps could explore.

We had to go to Victoria, BC, on Monday, and we couldn't help but notice lots of "classic" cars on the ferry. There must have been a gathering or something similar. Most were really, really old, but there were many from the 60s and 70s. They were gorgeous! But how could they possibly be passing emissions tests?

I looked into it for Washington State, and the vehicle must be over 40 years old, and you have to pay a special fee to register as an "antique" vehicle, but then, there is no emissions testing! The vehicle is allowed to be driven to/from events, but is not supposed to be used for "routine" driving, whatever that is.

Have you checked to see if Colorado has something similar?

Tue Jul 19, 2022 9:03 pm

dnh1263 wrote: In Georgia they wouldn't even test your vehicle because of its older age. Which to me is ass backwards... it's the older vehicles that the produce the most pollution. Who here hasn't had an older carbureted truck or car drive by them in the opposite direction and smelled all the fumes?! :shock:

Not sure about GA, but CT and RI* have a 25 year exemption, period. Not saying that can't or won't change but they ditched the testing on older cars for a few reasons.

1) was the equipment. all the old stuff had to pass idle and roller (dyno) testing and there were lots of times where the state (contractor) would fail people on the gas cap test because they didn't have the right adapter. they tried to pull that b/s with me in the late mid 90's on my 71 bus which basically has a mason jar lid for a gas cap. as you can imagine, the state got a lot of bad press and people bitching

2) at the time they got rid of all "state run" test stations it was a budget thing so they privatized it when the contract with envirotest ended. if you as a shop wanted to do emissions testing you had to have a dedicated bay and a dyno. in the end, the state ended their contract with envirotest and the 'brick and mortar' testing stations closed up and many got sold off.

that, as you can imagine went over like a fart in church. shops realized they were losing money hand over fist being a part of the program, so it basically got revamped... again to doing 'plug in' testing of obd1/2 vehicles and only a small percentage of shops doing diesel testing.

3) we have a 'rolling' 25 year exemption here. so a 97 doesn't have to test.. next year a 98 won't have to test etc. and same with classics.

*RI is about the same, just a bit different. they have annual inspections, CT doesn't

the reality, at least around here is every "old" car is either very limited use for only part of the year or really and truly non existent. not many people daily driving a 25 year old car here. while i don't know exact numbers of "old" 20+ year old cars and classics on the road it's pretty dam slim here.

So a lot of states kind of ditched testing old cars due to the enormous amount of data they need to store, test equipment etc. i'm no fan of more government but there are times i wish CT would start an annual inspection program. the amount of shit i see with bad suspensions, oil leaks and crunchy brake lines is staggering

Wed Jul 20, 2022 3:12 am

Same in NY. 25 rolling for obd emissions, no waiver for annual safety. Even with the annual a walk through the mall looking at tires makes me fearful of what’s on the road out there.

Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:10 am

Abscate wrote: Same in NY. 25 rolling for obd emissions, no waiver for annual safety. Even with the annual a walk through the mall looking at tires makes me fearful of what’s on the road out there.

1 25 yr rolling with Illinois
2 no safety tests
3 not all counties require smog testing

Although, I wish they would decibel test some of the nascar wannabes

Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:09 am

And in GA it's just metro-Atlanta that tests. The rest of the state is smog free (testing wise).

And they don't test diesels.

I don't know why the 25year loophole. My guess was too many good-ol-boys with nasty old cars but maybe it was more considered. It might be a "hobby" car exemption due to the fact they get driven few miles.

Still I'm glad I don't have it hanging over my head.

Wed Jul 20, 2022 8:14 am

steve244 wrote:

I don't know why the 25year loophole..

again, think about it. between the test equipment and straight up knowledge of older cars it would just be a pain in the ass.

i started with volvo just as their RWD cars were coming off warranty. i've all but forgotten all the tips/tricks on those cars. hell, i've forgotten a ton on 2010's at this point.

granted, you can pretty much run year round in GA but i still have to think not many people are daily driving 25+ year old cars at this point

Wed Jul 20, 2022 9:37 am

Old cars never die in GA, they just get wholesaled up north or are still running.

Wed Jul 20, 2022 10:26 am

steve244 wrote: Old cars never die in GA, they just get wholesaled up north or are still running.

tell me more :D

Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:51 pm

skills@eurocarsplus wrote: steve244 wrote: Old cars never die in GA, they just get wholesaled up north or are still running.

tell me more :D

Not sure... I sense a trap...

Ok maybe some cars meet an untimely demise here, but those are usually brought south by carpet baggers taking advantage of southern gentlepeople who don't know what salt is.

Wed Jul 20, 2022 5:16 pm

I'm in Denver, I was looking at buying a BOSTIG conversion from out of state.
Now, I'm wondering if that would get flagged also?
What do you think flagged their attention about the vehicle this time?
How did they know it was a Subaru conversion?
Out of state plates, what a hassle, then have to worry about getting ticketed for that!
I agree with the other comments, spin the tires, see what the results are, pass/fail.
I have to get my '60 B-160 IH 5 ton dump truck tested every year at the neighborhood shop, they are always amazed how clean it tests. And that's not exactly a commuter vehicle!!

Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:35 pm

Van Gary wrote:
I have to get my '60 B-160 IH 5 ton dump truck tested every year at the neighborhood shop, they are always amazed how clean it tests. And that's not exactly a commuter vehicle!!

how is that possible? 1960 had zero(ish) emissions controls

i would assume the bostig would be in the same boat. sounds as if CO wants 100% stock at this point

Quote: What do you think flagged their attention about the vehicle this time?
How did they know it was a Subaru conversion?

probably some politician who is interested in old cars and watched enough youtube vids of hacks putting in newer engines and saying shit like "it's emissions exempt so screw installing a cat/charcoal canister"

i mean really, who knows the real answer.