TheSamba.com :: View topic

Tue Nov 07, 2023 6:15 pm

Doing restomod on ‘72 SB…The DUNGBTL. Long time hobbyist car builder/restomodder and have done many cars in the past…’64 AH Sprite, ‘63 KG, ‘69 912, ‘84 911 Carrera, ‘90 LX 5.0L Notch, ‘91 300ZX TT, ‘06 Lotus Elise, ‘86 CRX Si, 87 Civic Si, to list a few.

Hands down the Porsche marque (356/911/912’s) cars are my all time favorites. And all my past builds have been all performance orientated (track, i.e., driver’s training, and local AX)…however I did concours the 912 and 911 w/the local PCA club, so there’s that. The plan for the DUNGBTL is the same, make it suitable for a ‘casual’ track day or local AX session and be presentable to take to car shows and cars ‘n coffees. I mention the love affair w/vintage Porsches because that’s the styling and “form follows function” slant I will be going for.

Searched for few months for a suitable candidate. Decided on a flat windshield SB because they still have the ‘classic dash’ under the fugly pad, more room in the frunk for the activities I have planned, and they’re less money to procure. After looking at half a dozen, I found the perfect candidate sitting in a field in Colfax CA. The owner had passed away and the property owner was looking to clear his property of the deceased's junk! After several weeks of phone negotiations (very stubborn seller) I rented an UHAUL truck and trailer (lots of spares went with the car) and traveled from Ashland OR down to Grass Valley (Colfax) CA to pick it up.

The perfect candidate for my project because it was cheap and had zero structural rust. Engine was out of the car (came with) but was a roller.

Originally I was planning a T4 914 motor in keeping with the vintage Porsche theme, however with more R&D into that and alternative engines…didn’t want to do a T1 due to unfavorable $/HP ratios…I found the T4 choice had even higher $/HP ratios. I decided on a 165 HP Subaru EJ25 as the engine (hence the larger Frunk and AC ‘grill’ of the 1302 SB!). A reliable 165 HP right outta the box, new millennium FI and engine management, plentiful and cheap! What’s not to like! Yea, yea, it not AC and so much for the Porsche theme, but hey, at least it’s still a flat 4!

Anyway…will be documenting the build here. I’m already a year & a half into it so, I’ll be posting what I’ve already done (I have lots of pics).

BTW, if any of you were into gen 3 Civics back in the day, I was KAKABOX on RedPepperRacing.com! :D

Wed Nov 08, 2023 1:31 pm

Sounds like it will be a cool build. I am working on a 73 standard myself, but I am trying to develop the same build philosophy related to Porsches. I particularly love the 911/912s with steelies. I just went to Rennsport 7 last month and that really inspired me.

I don't know how to describe the look I want other than "street stock", but "‘casual’ track day or local AX session and be presentable to take to car shows and cars ‘n coffees" is pretty darn close.

I really want to have the same width and diameter front and rear tires and lowered just over the wheels to get something different from the slammed look and narrowed front beam look.

What are you plans for spindles/beam and wheel tire combos? And for the casual AX plan, what are you going with for shocks and sway bars?

Looking forward to following this build!

Wed Nov 08, 2023 2:06 pm

Looking forward to the pictures of what you've been up to with this bug. I built a flatscreen Super too, but went mild with a 1600cc and an AMR 500 for boost. Still lots of fun though, and these Supers corner really nice with some drop and sway bars. I noticed your Sprite reference as I'm distracted by a Midget at the moment, it's a fun little car like a true go-cart.

:popcorn:

Wed Nov 08, 2023 6:26 pm

Quote: Sounds like it will be a cool build. I am working on a 73 standard myself, but I am trying to develop the same build philosophy related to Porsches. I particularly love the 911/912s with steelies. I just went to Rennsport 7 last month and that really inspired me.

I saw pics from R7 and it looked very cool. Wish I had gone! Back when I was in PCA I went to a Parade in Portland OR. Met Peter Porsche…saw Mark Donohue’s 917…it was all just sensory overload, in a good way! R7 looked similar.

Funny you should mention the vintage Porsche steelies…the old 15x4.5” wheels…I also like those (the Fuchs are just overplayed currently imo). I was watching a Magnus Walker OPP video on a restomod 912 using 356 styling cues and details. The car had what looked like the 911 steelies…turns out they are reproductions done in light weight aluminum alloy! And they were 16’s! Magnus was equally curious about them and asked the owner what kind they were. They are Group4Wheels out of the UK. I went on their website: https://www.group4wheels.com/store/16-LMZ-Aluminium-Steels-c127677601 and ordered a set of 16x6 and 7’s! ETA is December!

I talked to Jon Chabot owner of TopLine Parts about whether he thought the wheels would fit a ‘72 SB under the stock fenders and he said they would…using 205/55-16 tires on the 6’s and 225/50-16 on the 7’s rear. Cool thing about those wheels and tire sizes are…1) they are very close to the same rolling dia as the OEM SB wheel/tires, 2) their rolling diameters and sidewall heights are the same front and back (24.9” with 4.4” sidewalls), and 3) they are the same size wheels/tires that Porsche offered on the ‘80’s 911 Carreras! So they’re still plenty of performance tires in those sizes to choose from! It’s win, win, win! :D

I’m not sure if these would fit a beam front end of a standard. Someone on Samba probably knows. Yea, I’m not a fan of the narrowed beam look…doesn’t look right to me.

The SB has a strut front suspension so I’ll be using TopLine’s Maxx adjustable height coil-overs/struts and their other offerings for a lowered SB. Things like lca bushings and larger front stabar that helps correct the caster and camber when lowering. I’ll measure the bump steer and probably fab my own correction parts. In the rear probably slightly larger T-bars, Koni adj shocks and some sort of low stiction bushings for the diagonal arms…not quite sure yet. Need to research the rear more. Wilwood disc brakes all around w/a 5x130 Porsche BCD natch! 8)

The chassis will be stiffened by a 6pt removable roll cage w/welded on mounting plates (currently in work…will post it all) and a 6pt CoolRides Kafer bar (which is bolted to the under plate of the roll cage rear diagonals….again, I’ll post a whole thing about that install…a what a royal PITA that was to install! :evil: ).

Anywhoooo…that’s what’s in the works!

Buggeee:
Yea…the better handling, improved turning radius is another reason I went w/a SB for this build (and they have more room in the frunk for ‘activities’!) The AH Sprite was my 1st car! Unbeknownst to me, it was a real POS and at the time I had no mechanical experience on cars or money….so I had to learn to fix/restore it! And that experience motivated me to go back to school and get my Mechanical Engineering degree! I blame it all on that Sprite! :lol:

Cheers! J.

Thu Nov 09, 2023 6:23 am

:thumbsup: Love me a Gentian Blue '72 Super Save!

:popcorn:

Thu Nov 09, 2023 8:51 am

Nice! That’s a good looking SB!

Unfortunately the DUNGBTL exterior paint is not the original Enzian or Gentian Blue (a one year only color for ‘72 beetles) but an old repaint (only one!). Car does have some very cool patina, esp the roof, which I have enhanced. The interior is all original paint and in very good condition.

I removed the fenders (doing something different with those) and color sanded (1500) and polished the exterior to enhance the patina. I do not plan on painting the exterior (fenders yes, have plans for the fenders/bumpers). Doing a polished patina look using only color sanding, polish and wax, no ‘sauce’.

FWIW, I found that Euro color standard RAL 5010 is almost an exact match for my Gentian blue. It’s much cheaper to buy a standard color than a factory specific mix. I’ll be painting the some of the interior, touching up the frunk and engine bay with this.

The RAL 5010 ‘rectangle’ is on the left…Rustoleum ‘pure blue’ on the right.

J.

Thu Nov 09, 2023 10:13 am

DUNGBTL wrote: Nice! That’s a good looking SB!

Thanks! Sadly, I sold it in May 2018, and I think it was later stolen from the lady who bought it. I found it by chance on ebay market place a couple of years ago and when I contacted the seller (different person than my buyer) to get an in person look, after a bit of hemming and hawing the guy blocked me and the ad disappeared from FB. But I digress...

DUNGBTL wrote:

The RAL 5010 ‘rectangle’ is on the left…Rustoleum ‘pure blue’ on the right.

J.

Nice! Who did you buy the paint from?

Thu Nov 09, 2023 12:24 pm

After removing the pile of personal belonging from the deceased owner, I stripped the car of interior, all glass (all original except for windshield), front suspension, gas tank and wiring rat’s nest.

It looks like the master cylinder was leaking so I cleaned that area up and treated it w/rust converter…

…then I went to the opposite end and cleaned the undercoating(?) from the eng bay to reveal the true Gentian Blue color! :D

While I was back there, to make installing the EJ25 Subie engine easier, I drilled :D out a few dozen spot welds (or so it seemed) and made the rear apron removable…

I cleaned up the apron (underside…this is a patina build, remember! :) )…undercoated (Wurth), and painted (using my favorite chassis paint: catalyzed Rustoleum Satin Black). Then packed it up for storage for install at a later date!

Of course this wasn’t done all in one day. I’ve been at this for a year and 1/2 and have hundreds of pics…I’m just trying to catch you guys up! :D

Cheers, J.

Thu Nov 09, 2023 1:52 pm

DUNGBTL wrote:
I saw pics from R7 and it looked very cool. Wish I had gone! Back when I was in PCA I went to a Parade in Portland OR. Met Peter Porsche…saw Mark Donohue’s 917…it was all just sensory overload, in a good way! R7 looked similar.

R7 was also sensory overload, even the parking lot had so many cool Porsches! I got to talk to Rod Emory about a few of his cars which was a cool moment, and there was a Singer there too. I also went to Luftgekult last spring which was equally incredible.

DUNGBTL wrote: They are Group4Wheels out of the UK. I went on their website: https://www.group4wheels.com/store/16-LMZ-Aluminium-Steels-c127677601 and ordered a set of 16x6 and 7’s! ETA is December!

I think the guy that did that 356 inspired build either used to or still works at Singer. Pretty cool build for that guy. I love those wheels but they're pricey! Especially compared to what Mobulwagen offers. I'll need to do some more research on the standard and lowering, wheel spacers, and wheel tire combo, etc.

Sounds like you have an incredible build going on, keep the pictures and updates coming in! I'm removing the body from the frame on mine this weekend and kicking off the cleanup and prep on the pan and then body work. Maybe I'll start a build thread too.

Thu Nov 09, 2023 2:25 pm

Vamram: got the paint from https://everestautomotivemarket.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQi...SUEALw_wcB

$49/quart for single stage gloss alkyd enamel (which I can catalyze w/standard acrylic enamel catalyst). They sell it in a 2K urethane too.

MajorPIle: The young guy (Drew Hefner) that built the 912 restomod works for Rod Emory! The Magnus Walker OPP vid on it and him I thought was very good:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmwvs3EKzbQ&t=35s[/quote]

Good luck on the body removal…that’s really the way to restore these cars!

Cheers,
J.

Fri Nov 10, 2023 8:01 am

On with the show!

Suspensions typically work better when they’re attached to a structure that doesn’t deflect…a stiff chassis. To that end I started my attempts to add some chassis (read: pan & body) stiffness to the DUNGBTL. Started w/the front strut towers. Wire cup brushed (on angle grinder) away 50 yrs of dust and debris from the wheel well and used fire (propane torch) and a paint scrapper to remove the seam sealer from the strut tower doublers. LHS Prepped for stitch welding:

…LHS strut tower stitch welded…

….stitch welding penetration…I had shoved my car cover (old bed sheet) into the frunk prior to welding. Imagine my surprise when I smelled smoke and flipped my welding helmet up and saw flames! Yup…weld penetration set my ‘cover’ on fire! :shock: Good thing I was wearing thick welding gloves…clapped the flames out and continued. I did have an extinguisher 3’ away…

Etch primed the welds and wheel well, undercoated (Wurth undercoating) and top coated (catalyzed Rustoleum satin black: 10:4:1, paint:acetone:acrylic enamel hardener)…

…and etch primed the frunk side…
And rinse and repeat for the RHS…

Next up…custom strut tower brace fab/install…

Cheers,
J.

Fri Nov 10, 2023 9:12 am

Good work. Looking forward to the updates.

Fri Nov 10, 2023 9:14 am

Nicely Done!

Fri Nov 10, 2023 12:07 pm

DUNGBTL wrote: ...I’ll measure the bump steer and probably fab my own correction parts....

My tie-rods are flipped under the spindle to address this issue, and it works. I think Topline has the bushings for this modification.

The Topline struts, poly bushing corrections and larger sway bar front and rear let the car handle well, stays flat in the twisties.

Strut tower brace, fundamental, is an easy install as well.

The wheel wells look really clean

Fri Nov 10, 2023 12:11 pm

I put a Kafer bar in the rear and it stiffened up the back end between the shock towers like the strut tower does up front, plus securing the frame horns avoids wheel hop. I just used the readily available mass produced one and it does work.

C13-17-2975 - EMPI - REAR SUSPENSION ENGINE BRACE / TRUSS BAR KIT - ALSO KNOWN AS A KAFER-CUP BAR

Fri Nov 10, 2023 2:08 pm

Great mod. I have brand new panels will be doing the same.

Fri Nov 10, 2023 2:12 pm

Buggeee:
Thanks for the info! I’ve read about the flipping tie-rods trick. I’ll keep this in mind when I get to the front suspension. I’ve checked out TL’s offerings and already have a ‘wish list’ on the site. Those parts you mention and others are in there!

Most commercial stb’s (strut tower brace) leave a lot to be desired, imo. Most all are just a single tube/bars mechanically tied into some bracket mechanically (bolted) attached to the strut tower. Typically they have a pivot at either end which can only transfer axial loads. So, if you imagine the frunk as an open “U” btwn the struts, any side loads on the ‘tub’ reacted by the stb can still deflect the strut towers because the stb ends can pivot (tub taking the shape of a parallelogram).

Of course how much this actually occurs depends on the load level. And the stickier the tires, typically more the load transfer. DUNGBTL will use sticky tires, possibly ‘R’ compound. Ideally you want to triangulate the stb to react that pivot moment and stabilize the open “U” of the tub. That’s the kind of stb I designed…which is basically a copy of what’s been done countless times before. I essentially copied the design of the stb that vintage 911 race cars used back in the day. All in keeping with the vintage Porsche theme of the DUNGBTL! :wink:

I’ll post the write-up (w/countless pics :shock: ) of my stb in a day or two.

Cheers,
J.

Fri Nov 10, 2023 5:45 pm

That's nice looking. Make sure to get the foam out from behind the crescents.

Sat Nov 11, 2023 10:47 am

Strut tower ‘truss’:

To both stabilize the strut tower and frame head, and in keeping w/the vintage Porsche theme, I made a ‘truss’ in the style of the 70’s 911 RSR race cars…

I wanted the brace to be welded directly to the tower structure. I started w/1x2x.120” rectangular tubing and whittled out the tower and frame head attachments…

…w/some fine fettling, I ended up w/these parts…

The frame head where the stabar attaches, appears to be cantilevered a bit from the one bolt attachment to the front body structure. IMO, this location of the frame head could benefit w/some stiffening. It appears to me that the stabar on the SB not only functions as a torsional spring (stabar), but also as the fore-aft load reaction member of the lower control arm (lca)! Imo, it’s attachment could use some reinforcement! To that end, I wanted to have a welded attachment to the strut truss to stiffen by triangulation the strut and frame head structure. Jeeez… :shock: …lots of words there…on with the slide show!

But first…lets weld a 1/8” doubler on the frame head to capture the stabar attachment inserts:
Then I set the strut tower braces insitu on the towers (after using threaded rod to check for squareness w/the opposite side) and I ‘burned them in’ (as all the cool kids say :D )…
After I had the truss reaction points located, I set about fabbing the bars (tubes). I used strings to represent the centerlines of the bars and measured the tube angles, printed out coping templates for said tubes, coped and fitting the truss together (photo montage time! ) :D

Tubes tacked in place for welding on the bench…
Finished welded and bolted in place. Fits perfect, no threaded adjusters required!

The eagle eyed amongst you probably noticed the clevis attachment to the frame head doubler…
…this of course facilitated the truss attachment. The fitment of these clevises took a an inordinate amount of fiddling to position so that the truss ends fit tight in their slots but could allow the truss to be removed. In the end, all that time and fiddling was worth it as the truss fits “right and tight” but can be easily lifted out!

For the tube ends, I used hydraulic ram ends found on Amazon. This took seemly hours of checking dimensions to ensure that they would fit the ID of the tubes, have the width to fit my clevises/brackets and have a large enough hole for a structural fastener! Phewww…another run-on sentence! :shock: In the end, I did have to turn down the OD of the ends using my ‘drill lathe’ . I fined tuned the OD to be an interference fit w/the ID of the tubes. Froze the fitting and heated the tube ends to slip them in. Used 3 rosette welds (120* apart) to secure)…they’re not going anywhere!

So that’s the DUNGBTL strut tower/frame head truss! And yea, I cut a huge gapping hole in the frunk :shock: That’s for the water-pumper flat four’s cooling system (yes…it’s a Subaru EJ25 swap). I’ll cover that probably in the next post.

Cheers,
J

Sat Nov 11, 2023 5:02 pm

Incredible work you are doing there.
Too bad you were not one of the VW Engineers 50-75 years ago. I'll bet your work would have withstood the passing of time.