TheSamba.com :: View topic - Overhaul Coolant System or Dont Fix What Isn't Broken (Yet)

Sun Apr 21, 2024 11:28 am

1985 1.9L Westy Weekender, living in North Carolina. I've owned the van for a little over a year and have been tackling projects one at a time, safety stuff is mostly out of the way.

We have a camping trip in a few weeks and the cooling system has been a stresser for me. I was told the engine was rebuilt by the PO to the guy I purchased the van from, but I have zero documents or information to confirm this. The coolant hoses all seem decent, not brittle or ballooning. But, I am a bit of an anxious person and on hot days, especially when sitting at lights and such, the temp gauge will climb up to about 3/4 before the high speed fan kicks on and settles it down to about 1/2 on the guage. I haven't taken any readings at the radiator or expansion tank.

My gut tells me to spend the time and money and just do a full overhaul and save all the old hoses as back ups. By overhaul I'm talking radiator, water pump, thermostat, all hoses and a new expansion tank. What else would be recommended to do while doing this work? What are the recommended brands to use?

Conversely, am I worrying more than I should and need to leave this alone or is this considered pretty basic preventative maintenance with these Vans?

I've read quite a few mixed opinions about the 1.9L cooling system, but being a newer and single van owner I have no experience to go on.

I'm reasonably mechanically inclined, I have a Bentley manual, and I'm willing to kill time and beer for peace of mind.

Thanks for reading!

Sun Apr 21, 2024 11:51 am

Opinions range wildly on the topic.

When we bought our first 1.9 van, it took a while to seal up and sort out everything, but once we did I had no issues with the system design, even in hot and high desert passes when overloaded early on, and over at least 100 mountain passes. In fact, I found the system great.

A few things…

You might test an infrared gun’s accuracy with a kettle of boiling water, to confirm it’s reasonable close to 212F, or about 207 I think at 5,000 feet for reference.

I find our (plastic) compression tank on our current 2.1 engine and cooling system to read 150 to 180 at full temperature.

I’ve not tested the radiator nearly as much beyond it never getting hotter than the compression tank. Know that no matter what we’ve thrown at our engines, once right I *never* see much above the LED, meaning never at 3/4 temp. That seems like “radiator” to me, or the sensor’s amiss which I don’t think is very common, or you have air in the system.

If you intend to continue with a plastic tank, know that the replacements are not as good as the originals to my one try, ours failed within a year, was replaced, and we’re back to the 40 year-old tank and carry the new one as a spare.

In many cases of all things Vanagon, I don’t replace unless obviously needing that. Part of that is original stuff by and large being better, but in the case of hoses the new stuff is good.

With our first van, the hoses looked horrible so I bought the full set of 17 (I think) and carried them around while traveling full-time. In the end, we only replaced two that failed in 57,000 miles but was sure glad I had them!

Our second and current van was also an ‘84 1.9, but a PO fully converted it to a 2.1 system. When we lost an engine 22 months ago, Boy were we glad it had been converted and could take a 2.1 engine!

I’d look into this, in my opinion an even-better system and needing less hoses. The PO spent a couple thousand dollars at least on this but that included shop labor.

So far as I know, replacement radiators are good, our first van got a new one immediately as did our second, both Behrs, I think. No issues over about 110,000 combined miles.

We had a current water pump brand installed about 20,000 miles ago, would recognize the brand if seeing it, again, no problems. Just order *everything* from the main bus parts guys, we use and love VanAgain and he’ll help you configure it and probably on the phone. Ken rocks.

If doing this, keep all parts you take off and carry your known-working spares. If the radiator is proven good, I’d keep it as a spare for sure.

It’s really personal choice on replacing or not, meaning *now*, but these are my experiences.

Sun Apr 21, 2024 11:52 am

This came up recently.

After a bit of back and forth the clear answer was that only the owner can decide.

I fall heavily in the pre-emptive fix line of thought.

In my opinion there is little worse than a break down on the highway.
That horrible break down becomes even worse when you discover that with a few dollars and hours invested earlier ...... that break down would never have happened!

Belts
Hoses (and remove junk plastic)
Brakes
Tune ups
Fuel lines

Do it all before they leave you stranded.

Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:09 pm

my 0.02?

if you're going to use it...rip the band aid off and do the whole deal...then you know it was done.

do everything...including hose clamps. you're going to spend some money...at least 1800-2k

otherwise roll the dice and don't bitch when it explodes 400 miles from home

Sun Apr 21, 2024 12:45 pm

That sounds pretty good except experience has many times shown a valid counter argument.
Often times the trip failure is with something that was replaced somewhat recently and perhaps not done perfectly or done with lower than factory quality parts.
I have run across this countless times with my family and friends.
Owner work, shop work, either way.

So replacing all of the many cooling system parts in no way guarantees trouble free cooling system operation though it could improve the odds if done well.

For sure don't have a bunch of work done just before a big trip and then think you are all set.
Do it far enough ahead to have time for some shakedown drives.

Mark

djkeev wrote: .......
In my opinion there is little worse than a break down on the highway.
That horrible break down becomes even worse when you discover that with a few dollars and hours invested earlier ...... that break down would never have happened!
..........

Sun Apr 21, 2024 1:20 pm

crazyvwvanman wrote: That sounds pretty good except experience has many times shown a valid counter argument.
Often times the trip failure is with something that was replaced somewhat recently and perhaps not done perfectly or done with lower than factory quality parts.
I have run across this countless times with my family and friends.
Owner work, shop work, either way.

So replacing all of the many cooling system parts in no way guarantees trouble free cooling system operation though it could improve the odds if done well.

For sure don't have a bunch of work done just before a big trip and then think you are all set.
Do it far enough ahead to have time for some shakedown drives.

Mark

djkeev wrote: .......
In my opinion there is little worse than a break down on the highway.
That horrible break down becomes even worse when you discover that with a few dollars and hours invested earlier ...... that break down would never have happened!
..........

Point taken but with the two Vans that I've redone, the only real failure was me failing to tighten a hose clamp on the radiator.
I've had cheap brake pads wear quickly.
I did unexplicitly lose a power steering belt up by Crater Lake.

Neither of these "breakdowns" were more than a short pause.

Sun Apr 21, 2024 1:28 pm

skills@eurocarsplus wrote: my 0.02?
if you're going to use it...rip the band aid off and do the whole deal...then you know it was done.
do everything...including hose clamps. you're going to spend some money...at least 1800-2k
otherwise roll the dice and don't bitch when it explodes 400 miles from home
This ^^^

I noticed that I stopped having coolant related failures after I replace almost everything.

Sun Apr 21, 2024 1:38 pm

to me the "correct answer" is skills + vanman:
do it all, but don't attempt it 2 weeks before a long trip

pack some tools, a few spares and some rescue tape
have a great trip and do the cooling system at your leisure afterwards 8)

Sun Apr 21, 2024 3:07 pm

I agree with Skills except for the almost $2k part. For a DIY coolant hoses / radiator replacement? Maybe stuff has gone up in price since I did mine but that sounds pricey. It sound low if you’re paying someone else to do it.

Sun Apr 21, 2024 3:51 pm

Many opinions on this.
I trust your original parts more than the generic crap at the regular auto parts.

Chose your replacement parts carefully and wisely to get the best quality part available. Shop our Vanagon vendors.
Replacement plastic coolant tanks are known to be short lived, consider one of the aluminum replacement tanks.
SS coolant lines front to back are worth the $ to me, 1985 you could have original steel pipes or plastic. The metal replacement T fittings in the heater lines at the rear are a no brainer. Replacement radiators are sketchy today, roll the dice.
Hepu water pump, a joy to change, :lol:
Use proper coolant when all done.

Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:34 pm

Skills isn't wrong. All new hoses are $600, new stainless coolant pipes, new radiator, new stainless coolant tower, metal fitting on right head, aluminum thermostat housing and senders, heater hoses, heater valve, stainless pressure tank, radiator cap, coolant...... you're pushing that $2,000 mark.

Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:43 pm

My anecdotal contribution... my 84 Westy has 280,000 miles on it and wears the original hoses, still supple and sound. I have a full spare set (used) for the day when something fails but meanwhile I'll drive and enjoy.

I did finally replace the radiator just because it was out for some AC work though it had never failed to perform well.

Lots of hand-wringing on this subject but my approach is more trust but verify (I e. rely on inspection and vigilance rather than preventive maintenance). I do flush and replace the coolant every 2 years, that's easy and cheap insurance.

Sun Apr 21, 2024 4:46 pm

Quote: I agree with Skills except for the almost $2k part. For a DIY coolant hoses / radiator replacement? Maybe stuff has gone up in price since I did mine but that sounds pricey. It sound low if you’re paying someone else to do it.

sadly, that IS the DIY price. between draining the system and doing the SS pipes, swapping the radiator is almost 1 day....you haven't even touched the heater hoses, rear heater core, heater control valves etc. 8 hours at 100/hr...well do the math

a full cooling system rehab is at least 2 days and that's with a lift.

I literally had over 200 in hose clamps from McMaster....and had very few left over (granted, I did the SS NORMA clamps)

hell..you're at 60-70 bux in just coolant

don't forget shipping....

Mon Apr 22, 2024 5:59 am

I greatly appreciate everyone's input. I think I will wait until after my camping trip to do any work since I would only have a few days to drive it before camping if I did the work now.

My main concern is my radiator. I need to verify this if I can but I believe its original. My experience is with more modern vehicles but i've had 2 plastic radiators give up on me on separate vehicles so it makes me wary, though i'm inclined to trust the majority of opinions on here more than my own anecdotes.

The temperature creep I get when sitting is really what scares me with an old radiator. Is it normal to hit 3/4 (roughly) on the temp gauge? The light has yet to come on and far as I can tell it works.

Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:16 am

The temp creep is totally normal and indicates your van is working like it should. The temp gauge is an actual gauge and not just a dummy gauge that holds middle until 250F and shoots up to redline. A lot of new cars are like that.

The weakest point of the cooling system is the plastic coolant reservoir. The strongest point is probably the heater loop hoses, followed by the radiator. I haven't seen any radiator fails in my years here, however they do slowly go bad over the years as they fill up with sediment. However, if it goes up to 3/4, fan kicks on, and drops to 1/2 then your radiator is absolutely fine.

I will always recommend replacing the plastic tank with an aluminum version, but I also recommend just going out and driving the van.

Mon Apr 22, 2024 6:34 am

BirdBus85 wrote: .... 3/4 (roughly) on the temp gauge? The light has yet to come on and far as I can tell it works.

This should be checked when you have time.

Mine works fine but I added a manual switch as where I drive includes frequent abrupt climbs from desert to mountain. Having a switch lets me anticipate the need when the mountain road (and a line of RVs) in the distance.

Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:29 am

What about your low speed radiator fan, does it come on with extending idling when the gauge rises to 3/4?

The original radiators have a manufacturing date molded into the passenger side end tank.
It is a small round emblem with the year in the middle.
If yours reads 85 or older then likely original and wise to consider replacement.
Remove the upper grill to find it.

Replace the the 2 front hoses at the same time, they don't cost much.
Most 85 and older vans will need adapter sleeves for the new version radiator hoses to fit the old main pipes.

Mark

BirdBus85 wrote: .............
My main concern is my radiator. I need to verify this if I can but I believe its original. My experience is with more modern vehicles but i've had 2 plastic radiators give up on me on separate vehicles so it makes me wary, though i'm inclined to trust the majority of opinions on here more than my own anecdotes.

The temperature creep I get when sitting is really what scares me with an old radiator. Is it normal to hit 3/4 (roughly) on the temp gauge? The light has yet to come on and far as I can tell it works.

Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:33 am

Regarding the I.R. temp guns.
In 20 yrs. of using them and verifying their calibration using boiling water 212°F and bowls of ice cubes 32°F I do not think I've found one that was accurate.

Granted a lot of that accuracy is very dependent on exactly where you put the red dot.
Pot of boiling water - the dot goes through the water , the sides of the pot are conducting heat from the coil or the flame. I literally just now hard boiled a dozen eggs and you think the eggs are going to be 212°? Nope- 187°
The steam coming off the water is 212° according to the science taught, but good luck measuring that!
Ice cubes are 32° or close to it if you get them before too much melting!

This is testing $4-500 IR Guns as well as the 100 dollar guns. +/- 10° accuracy if your lucky..
None ever gave 212°or 32°.I'm sure there is a calibrated and certified standard they point them at in the factory, but not outside of the factory!

Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:37 am

Ahwahnee wrote: BirdBus85 wrote: .... 3/4 (roughly) on the temp gauge? The light has yet to come on and far as I can tell it works.

This should be checked when you have time.

Mine works fine but I added a manual switch as where I drive includes frequent abrupt climbs from desert to mountain. Having a switch lets me anticipate the need when the mountain road (and a line of RVs) in the distance.

If you have factory A/C, when you turn on the A/C your radator fan motor should come on low. I use that sometimes when climbing hills during hot weather.

Mon Apr 22, 2024 7:39 am

Keep in mind when your temp gauge is going up and getting scary that you have a second radiator you can use for added cooling.
Turn your heater on full. The heater core is a radiator and it will help cool the system. Of course your going to love all that hot air inside, but better then blowing steam!