TheSamba.com :: View topic - Head rebuild—are there any good parts today at all?

Tue Sep 24, 2024 10:12 am

Hi, I am trying to rebuild my type 4 engine 2.0 heads.
Looking at the prices of the new ones with questionable parts, that's the only thing I can do.
What suppliers and parts have you found recently?
Obviously usa and European parts from known or OE manufacturers are in.
China /no names parts out.
Manley are what I hoped to use until I saw —made in China. So the $2000 empi super vee heads use these? No thank you.

Tue Sep 24, 2024 11:37 am

Backtotheeightiesagain wrote: Hi, I am trying to rebuild my type 4 engine 2.0 heads.
Looking at the prices of the new ones with questionable parts, that's the only thing I can do.
What suppliers and parts have you found recently?
Obviously usa and European parts from known or OE manufacturers are in.
China /no names parts out.
Manley are what I hoped to use until I saw —made in China. So the $2000 empi super vee heads use these? No thank you.

Not all Manley valves are made in China. Also, some of those that are are excellent. Which valves were you looking at?

There are good valves made by SI and they are also the go to for exact and custom sized guides.
There are several companies I can recommend for valve seats but CHE precision is top notch.

Not nearly everything made in China is bad. Sadly....lately.....just about as many parts and tools made in the USA are junk. It matters who is doing the QC.
Ray

Ray

Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:36 am

Backtotheeightiesagain wrote: So the $2000 empi super vee heads use these? No thank you.

cip1 had the empi super vee heads for $1600, but when they have them they sell out fast at that price. I haven't tried a pair yet.

Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:06 am

Those heads are just stock 914 heads with slightly stronger springs and - maybe - a better than stock valve job. But the name sounds catchy.
I would like to hear one of the pro type 4 guys check them out and give their verdict before I would sink tjst kind of money into them

Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:34 am

Alstrup wrote: Those heads are just stock 914 heads with slightly stronger springs and - maybe - a better than stock valve job. But the name sounds catchy.
I would like to hear one of the pro type 4 guys check them out and give their verdict before I would sink tjst kind of money into them

Yes, $600 more than equivalent AA heads.

Wed Sep 25, 2024 7:07 am

Maybe not quite. These supposidly have a better valve job

Sat Oct 12, 2024 8:08 am

Ray,
the standard manley valves from summit etc are now Chinese.
Manley were criptic with their answers about the origin of parts.
Summit honest.
Maybe you can special order custom manley American made valves (excessive effort tho) .
Until I can find suppliers that guarantee the provenance (or country of manufacture) the heads are staying on the shelf stripped and bare!
A spring or valve doesn't have some specific traceable numbers and could be transferred from one plastic bag to one with a quality name/place of manufacturing.
I will go around some head machining companys to see what sources they have.
As usual it is Who You Know-not what - that gets the job done right!

Sat Oct 12, 2024 8:16 am

Surely the word EMPI, is suspicious for a start.
I noticed that the 914 (inlet only) valve was listed by porsche dealers, overpriced but at least passed some quality control hopefully.
Who is making them for porsche tho and why no exhaust as well?!
I checked with trw group and they said nothings available in Europe that would help. Certainly not in porsche sizes. Bilstein febi neither.

Sat Oct 12, 2024 9:32 am

I was surprised once by Scott at SGS Aircooled over here in the UK , he showed me a head where the nitrous oxide on his Type 3 drag racer had escaped through a slight leak in the head to cylinder joint, and had then flame cut its way out through the head..
He then showed me the EMPI heads he was going to replace it with, and seemed pretty happy with their quality. He pointed out the head business was really separate from the bubble wrapped chrome plated cheese metal parts, that made the EMPI reputation what it is today.

A few years later I bought a new engine and it came with AA pistons and cylinders "assembled in the USA" and EMPI heads. The EMPI heads were better finished than the Autolinea heads that VW of Brazil had been using.

So its all down to QC. If you insist on a country of origin, where that country no longer makes the part, you could be waiting a long time until some NOS parts turn up.

Careless low paid people all over the world can do a bad job no matter what nationality.

Sat Oct 12, 2024 10:42 am

Right. I would not, and am not affraid of "name" parts made in China. Heck, half of of your modern vehicle is made in overseas countries ranging from South Korea, Malaysia to India. Are you affraid of driving that? I wouldnt be surprised if you drove a Hyundai as a DD.
Anyway. If made in China Manley valves can survive 2 drag seasons, touching 9500 rpm 3 times on a quarter I would use them on the street in a heartbeat, and I do. Its not a question of the origin. Its a question about QC. You need to wake up here in the globalized world, - which are shrinking a little again, but still.
If you are worried about quality of the parts involved you may want to buy a set through f.i. Udo Becker Tuning. He definitely only installs high quality stuff and makes high quality seat work in the heads which leave his shop.
http://www.udobeckertuning.de/allg/kontact.htm

Sat Oct 12, 2024 1:35 pm

Alstrup wrote: Right. I would not, and am not afraid of "name" parts made in China.

I 100% agree. When mainstream manufactures start producing products in Asia, and other regions, they don't just hand over some plans and tooling and say go for it. They have the same quality control, if not better then the parts made in the US. Take Manley, or other high end components, do you think that they would jeopardize their entire market share just to save a few dollars on a valve?

Some companies might, but it is up to us a consumers to help each other out. Sadly production is no longer, US makes the best stuff, (in some cases we do).

Also I believe that the ACVW world is rapidly shrinking, so getting parts is going to be harder. Take my town: 10 years ago we had an ACVW only wrecking yard, and 5 VW part stores. Today, just one part store, and I can't remember the last time I saw a VW on the road around here.

Sat Oct 12, 2024 4:06 pm

I had a set of Manley 42 x 36 valves from the 914 listing in Manleys catalog, installed in a set of heads last year (for a 1.8L engine I really need to finish). Had a VERY competent racing machine shop build the heads. Crower springs and retainers from the type 4 store. Berylium copper seats from CHE. 2.5x oversize guides custom made by SI. The head guy put a four angle valve job on the Manley valves and noted that most in that series are the Chinese valves but stated that the quality was excellent.
They said they have been seeing a lot of them and occasionally they grind slightly different but overall they are excellent. They have stellite tips and chromed stems and are swirl finished.

No problems with what Manley is selling. Ray

EDIT....There are some other good valves out there. SI valves, Jake Raby was using those when he was still building type 4 kits but he would not list a series because he was having them made to his specs. Some people use a lot of SI and swear they are good. Others I have spoken to....mind you they are perfectionists and are race only....say they are just average/decent but not good enough for high performance. Then again.....speaking to SI about guides and chatting about a range of things a couple years back....I'm betting they can make anything you want.

The other brand and I have a set up them going into my 1.7L eventually...are Intervalves made in Switzerland. For a while about 10 years ago, the 914 guys swore they were excellent for anything but dedicated track use and were about equivalent to TRW stock. I bought mine from Pelican parts but they are no longer selling Intervalve brand.

I will post part #s for the intervalves shortly.

Sat Oct 12, 2024 6:14 pm

The intervalves brand of valve part #'s.

For Porsche 914 2.0L

Intake: #1424.032 (42mm with 8mm stem)
Exhaust: #1423.239 (36mm with 9mm stem)

For Porsche 914 and 411/412 1.7L

Intake: #1614.002 (39.3mm with 8mm stem)
Exhaust: #1873.239 (34mm with 9mm stem)

These have chrome stems and stellite tips.

Ivam in Italy also makes competant valves. Its one of the most common vw replacement vales out there. Decent...chromed stems and stellite tips. They are basic stock or just above replacement with a good reputation.

I cannot bad mouth them. Adrian at Headflow masters was using these for years in his type 4 head rebuilds. Also if you search this forum on Ivam, more than a few people vouch for them and state they have had "0" problems with them.
So they can be said to be probably close to equal to the stock TRW and ATE of years back....but are they useful for higher performance than stock or near stock? I just do not know.

Another interesting brand is Osvat is another good Italian valve company also with a plant in Romania. I hear they are about equal to Ivam.

Also, Automobile Atlanta sells Intervalve brand valves. Ray

Sun Oct 13, 2024 3:09 am

raygreenwood,

I wonder who makes Eurorace/European motorworks' valves??

Sun Oct 13, 2024 9:35 am

onwardtothestars wrote: raygreenwood,

I wonder who makes Eurorace/European motorworks' valves??

Hard to say without calling them but search information lead to a couple of threads from about 12 years ago saying they are using SI valves. The pricing on their website is also inline with about what SI valves cost.

Really, all of these manufacturers listed make excellent valves. You just need to call and tell them your application so they can set you up with the right series and material.

Another common brand with a decent following.....meaning at least they are not stayed to be crap....are the AE brand. Pelican parts and Automobile Atlanta (both big 914 enthusiast sites) sell AE. They are Federal Mogul. And, many are inferring that since Federal Mogul is tje latest owner of TRW.....that these are probably TRW. That may be correct or totally incorrect and totally meaningless all at the same time considering that over the past 30 years TRW parts have been made all over the globe.....and yet largely have maintained the same basic level of quality.

This goes right back to a few posts back. Find a good valve BRAND with decent reviews for a specific series....and just go with that.

A far bigger fear for valves for me.....and many in this forum may disagree with me.....is the common question of.... "what valves should I use".....and the common answer being...."stainless steel or one piece stainless steel"......which is a 100% worthless answer.

What grade of stainless?
Whose stainless?
Why one piece when two piece spin welded or laser welded or induction welded have lasted hundred of thousands of miles,
What about hardened tips on those stainless valves?
What about hardened/chromed stems on those stainless valves?

Not against stainless valves at all.....but just being "stainless" does not make them better. Ray

Sun Oct 13, 2024 10:04 am

Ray,

I bought valves from eurorace. No markings or printed name on the tops of them. Sterilized.
No idea without asked them but I’m sure better than the old used valves, maybe

Sun Oct 13, 2024 10:25 am

I'm staying out of this because almost all the decent valves are made in europe anyway.
Would not make much sense to ship them across the ocean twice, right :lol:

But I don't see there being any past glories lost.
On the whole valves are cheaper and better than ever.

Sun Oct 13, 2024 11:23 am

modok wrote: I'm staying out of this because almost all the decent valves are made in europe anyway.
Would not make much sense to ship them across the ocean twice, right :lol:

But I don't see there being any past glories lost.
On the whole valves are cheaper and better than ever.

:wink: ...Yes...and I get where you are coming from and not because I build nearly as many engines as you do. I do talk to a few very good engine builders but none of them build VW's for a living (not saying they have not built more than a few over the years but its not what they do every day).

Their point of view is also...very high performance. Some top fuel, circle track, drag boats....a wide range of stuff where $10-15k for an engine is cheap.

When they start talking valves...they are jaded by the need to make sure that nothing they put into an engine can be considered a "weak link". They always buy the best they can...or the best they know of... because it WILL be an issue if a part fails, destroys $20-30k worth of engine because they saved $200 buying a lesser part than they knew existed and they could have afforded.

That being said, if you explain where you are coming from (not at their level of performance) and lay out what you have and what you need and mention the usual list of suspects like we have in this thread....these guys will at least be able to say...."those are well made"..."those are stock"...."those are suspect".

I have also seen that valves are made better than they ever have been. The original VW valves ....lets say early 70's and earlier....either TRW or ATE have always had the reputation as being of excellent quality and last a good long time when well cared for.

That being said....they were pretty much all two piece valves with chromed stems and hardened tips. Nothing exotic...just well made run of teh mill valves for their era.

So many people over the last few decades swearing by one piece valves....even though modern computer controlled "spin welding" and induction welding and laser welding...are light years ahead of what originally came in these cars. I can probably guarantee you that the valves in my Goly mk6 ...with 309,000 miles on it today....are probably two piece and maybe not even stainless. However they could easily be nitrided....or a whole range of modern treatments to the stem.

Maybe 15-20 years ago a lot of people (me included) would look at valves they were not familiar with and if they were too cheap in price compared to even basic stock....they would consider them a risk and look at them with a hairy eye.

However, then you meet people who build far more engines than you do and they have used many of the same valves without a single complaint. What gives?

Modern manufacturing is what gives.

If I had to buy valves quick and on a budget and they just needed to be stock or better...I would buy almost any of those mentioned here.

The things I gave teh hairy eye to were those stacks of ads in the back of the VW magazines from 15+ years ago that simply listed valves ...full sets..."stainless"...for rediculous cheap prices. No idea who made what and where. However back in the 90's I saw plenty of these in other peoples heads that very quickly wore a divot in the tips....and needed lash caps?????...for a stock build?

To the original poster of this thread:

You have not mentioned what your application is. Is this a bus? 914? 411/412? More than stock performance?

I understand where you are coming from even if its stock. Even my 1.7L engines have pistons and bearings and a fine Std/std crank taht cannot be replaced so I like to start with known good. Its not just the money....its long life and the need to NOT destroy what I cannot replace. Working with type 4 compared to type 1 is like that.

If this is a stock-ish 2.0L type 4....Personally I would use the Manleys even made in China. If that bugs you then I would most certanly use The Intervalves made in Switzerland. The interesting thing is they have a plant in Romania as well. So does Osvat.

Also, many, many type 4 bus guys have used heads made/rebuilt by Headflow masters over the decades and he has used mostly Ivam valves made in Italy. I would think those would be good enough to trust also.

Ray