TheSamba.com :: View topic - How Much Power Can a 1600 Dual Port Make? We’re Finding Out!

Wed May 14, 2025 7:20 pm

Alexander_Monday wrote: Just for comparison, here is the discharge temp curve of my 1.5L twin screw supercharger at 2 bar with 68F inlet temp.
Turbo should be quite a bit more efficient at the lower end, about the same in the middle and a little more efficient at the upper end.
So at 2.25 bar the math probably isn't too far off.
Degrees F on left, Drive RPM on bottom.
At the end of the day though, after water to air intercooler only 3F to 10F rise logged so an intercooler absorbs a lot of heat.

The highest temps I saw in my logs before W/I and my intercooler were around 260* F.

If you don't have an Intake Air Temp Sensor it's kind of hard to know what boosted temps would be.
Megasquirt allows you to log all kinds of info and I've been doing it since 2011.
I think I have enough experience to post temps on here.

I've posted a link to the calculator I use to compute the boosted temps many times. I'm not going to post it again.
I've used the calculator for at least 8 years I'm thinking and it has been close enough to my logged temps that I don't need to question it.

As EV-Fun posted.....there is a math equation to figure it out but just inputting the ambient temp, boost level and intercooler efficiency to get the boosted temp is much more convenient for me.
Those guys on that site have been running turbos on aircooled motorcycles since 1979.....I'm thinking they know what they are doing.

If a poster can spend hours digging up an eleven year old post on hot 1600's but can't find time to research air temps..............
As they say.......You can lead a horse to water....but you can't make him drink.....I'm thinking it is the cousin to the horse......a little smaller build......and spelled with three letters.

Wed May 14, 2025 8:33 pm

Dont be a pussy, just say the word “ass”, no need to dance around it like your afraid your grandkids will hear you.

You do have a point about the IAT sensor and I’ll look into getting one thats non-permanent like the AFR meter i use so i can take it from one engine to the next ,and collect data on more than just one single turbo engine i built.
But i still and always will stand by my statement that you over exaggerate it and get people all tripped out. It’s dumb to think that 130F is the max IAT before catastrophic failure when plenty of boosted engines are run in ambient air temps of over 100 degrees ( me being one of them ). I understand you cant and wont try to grasp that as you live where ambient summer temps are 75F, as you previously stated.
I also know that the mere atomization of fuel will drop that AIT let alone W/I and intercooler , so it could be possible to drop IATs way down even in 100F ambient temps. I also know theres engines that dont run any forms of cooling other than fuel atomization and they dont have meltdowns. I also know engines ive built AIT’s arent 200* F because ive held the intake plumbing and even compressors immediately after flogging the hell out of them. Id say im sorry about your feelings regarding this, as obviously by your comments, adding something i said to your signature , and your whining on STF about it this really bothers you, but im not. i dont argue that IAT’s increase under boost i just challenge your factually made statements that anything beyond 130*F is thermal meltdown. Is there a point at 130F? I wouldn’t doubt that at all. But it’s really just the same as when people get told their engine will have catastrophic failure for running .070 or .080 deck, neither is true to that extreme. But a lot of other people just follow the leader without question ..

Also, yes, the motorcycle website with all the calculators is nice. Been visiting there for years too…

Wed May 14, 2025 10:42 pm

I never said 130* is meltdown......You keep bloviating about it getting yourself all lathered up when you have no clue what temps any engine runs since you have no record or logs.
I have logs from over 60,000 miles of turbo with and without intake cooling.

I don't run draw thu......It's so 80's.
I don't use a carb.....haven't for 12 years.......and will never go back.
I don't use a distributor......haven't for 14 years......and never will.

You running a clapped out, locked 009 has no relevance to my setup whatsoever....so quit trying to compare them.
You running a draw through carb more than likely pig rich also has no relevance to my system.
Most people reading what I post understand that I'm am talking about my setup and can relate to it. You, however.......can't seem to comprehend that small detail.

As far as my sig goes.........I guess the truth hurts....I didn't say it......someone else did......and the best part is your own words......"I'm so ignorant of EFI"........
And speaking of Whining......You're the one that had to PM me crying about the sigs.

For anyone else...........
Here is the link for the intercooler calculator so anyone can put in the numbers and see what I'm talking about.......

Scroll down just a little and fill in the blanks.

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/intercoolers.htm

18 lbs boost
100 degrees inlet air temp.
"0" for intercooler efficiency

Answer is 242.19* F.

Subtract 100 degree for Venturi effect with a draw through and you can see the 142* F. I came up with.

Try 24 lbs boost.
95* F.
"0" efficiency

Comes out to 270* F.

That takes some serious W/I and/or intercooler to get down to ambient.
You can drop timing to 16-18 degrees and maybe control detonation but the air is so hot it can't hold near the fuel to make the power.
Cold air can hold more fuel and therefore makes more power for a given AFR.

I added W/I in 2013 and the Audi TT V6 intercooler in 2017.

In fall till spring I can see 87* intake temps at 24 lbs. boost.
Cold outside air, cold water/alcohol mix, and cold air going thru the intercooler will help a lot....in the summer...not as much.

Here is my digital dash with real time info.
Top right is MAT......that is my intake temps while cruising at 69 mph.

There's two ways to look at the bit of info.
1.) Some warm air is recirculating into the intake from the engine and off the exhaust pipes due to my filter placement.
2.) It warms the air for better atomization if it was a carb removing the need for carb heat. The turbo accounts for about 20* F. of intake heat since ambient temps were probably around 70* F.

Thu May 15, 2025 6:30 pm

clonebug wrote: I never said 130* is meltdown......actually yes you have, multiple times You keep bloviating about it getting yourself all lathered up when you have no clue what temps any engine runs since you have no record or logs.
I have logs from over 60,000 miles of A turbo with and without intake cooling.
Sure we can do a lot with EFI these days and push engines way further than ever before, but you’re not there in that category. Your build is not pushing things any further than a carb’ed engine can go, actually less
I don't run draw thu......It's so 80's.
I don't use a carb.....haven't for 12 years.......and will never go back.
I don't use a distributor......haven't for 14 years......and never will.
What i hear here isnt that you wont, its that you CANT

You running a clapped out, locked 009 has no relevance to my setup whatsoever....so quit trying to compare them.
You running a draw through carb more than likely pig rich also has no relevance to my system.
Most people reading what I post understand that I'm am talking about my setup and can relate to it. You, however.......can't seem to comprehend that small detail.

This right here shows how ignorant and close minded you are. If you knew just half of what you think you do youd know that the locked out 009 that i run is tied to the very first Black Box ever sold by CB. that not only shows your stupid but also gives you an idea of how long this particular engine of mine has been going.
Aside from that though, yes, i have run a locked out 009, but ive also run DVDA’s, SVDA’s, and Magnasparks, some stock, some locked, some limited, and a lot tied to a Black Box. Aside from the 1st one ive probably purchased at least ten more boxes which are all in use. Ive built both drawthrough and blow through and not just on vw’s either. Ive also built them with multiple different Weber and domestic carbs too. I am not limited to only being able to use efi and only on one single turbo build that i did years ago. Ive built and run engines with as little as 7lbs of boost to 20lbs ( not just upping the boost on one single engine i built ). So, good for you and your one turbo build that has EFI

As far as my sig goes.........I guess the truth hurts....I didn't say it......someone else did......and the best part is your own words......"I'm so ignorant of EFI"........
And speaking of Whining......You're the one that had to PM me crying about the sigs.
Crying? I think anyone on here that has ever DM’ed me knows the last thing I’d do is cry. If memory serves me right i was laughing at you for being so weak and pathetic to think that posting that would bother me. I told you to please keep it because with every post you make it reminds me of how much i got under your skin. And you didnt reply to me because you cant keep up. Why would you think id be bothered by something that i myself posted?? I have NO problems admitting the things i am ignorant of, and yes EFI is one of those things, so what? See, im secure in myself and not afraid to admit theres things i dont have experience in. You? Dont seem so …

For anyone else...........
Here is the link for the intercooler calculator so anyone can put in the numbers and see what I'm talking about.......

Scroll down just a little and fill in the blanks.

https://www.rbracing-rsr.com/intercoolers.htm
Just yesterday you said youd posted this many times and wouldnt post it again, wtf?
18 lbs boost
100 degrees inlet air temp. Why would you use 100* when thats not the temps for your region nor is it 100* in their dyno room
"0" for intercooler efficiency

Answer is 242.19* F.

Subtract 100 degree for Venturi effect with a draw through and you can see the 142* F. I came up with.

Try 24 lbs boost.
95* F.
"0" efficiency

Comes out to 270* F.

That takes some serious W/I and/or intercooler to get down to ambient.
You can drop timing to 16-18 degrees and maybe control detonation but the air is so hot it can't hold near the fuel to make the power.
Cold air can hold more fuel and therefore makes more power for a given AFR.

I added W/I in 2013 and the Audi TT V6 intercooler in 2017.

In fall till spring I can see 87* intake temps at 24 lbs. boost.
Cold outside air, cold water/alcohol mix, and cold air going thru the intercooler will help a lot....in the summer...not as much.

Here is my digital dash with real time info.
Top right is MAT......that is my intake temps while cruising at 69 mph.

There's two ways to look at the bit of info.
1.) Some warm air is recirculating into the intake from the engine and off the exhaust pipes due to my filter placement. Thats a smart thing to do on an engine your trying to keep IAT’s down on
2.) It warms the air for better atomization if it was a carb removing the need for carb heat. The turbo accounts for about 20* F. of intake heat since ambient temps were probably around 70* F. Again, smaaart….

Mon May 19, 2025 4:18 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hq-irKBOUmQ

There is the conclusion of the matter. Proving once again that you can dumb thumb anything into oblivion. I had a gut feeling as soon as they made the decision to do a run with the fan belt off... that would be the end of the fun. The engine was still running well up to that point.

Tue May 20, 2025 9:11 am

After watching the newest episode. Maybe someone can have input on why the piston skirts broke?

Tue May 20, 2025 9:23 am

NJ John wrote: After watching the newest episode. Maybe someone can have input on why the piston skirts broke?

Flex in the crankshaft at high RPMs, causing the piston to be off-center just enough on the downstroke...? Wild guess.

Tue May 20, 2025 9:35 am

vamram wrote: NJ John wrote: After watching the newest episode. Maybe someone can have input on why the piston skirts broke?

Flex in the crankshaft at high RPMs, causing the piston to be off-center just enough on the downstroke...? Wild guess.

That's our guess too. That and worn pins, cylinders, etc. Just too much slop. LOL

Tue May 20, 2025 10:23 am

Fun With VDubs wrote: vamram wrote: NJ John wrote: After watching the newest episode. Maybe someone can have input on why the piston skirts broke?

Flex in the crankshaft at high RPMs, causing the piston to be off-center just enough on the downstroke...? Wild guess.

That's our guess too. That and worn pins, cylinders, etc. Just too much slop. LOL

I forgot we had new pins and cylinders in this one. LOL But you know what I mean.

Tue May 20, 2025 10:44 am

My guess would be excessive boost creating WAY TOO much force on the inexpensive cast pistons/rings. Just hammered to death is my guess.

I see the crank as described above also as a problem, but find it had to relate that to ring land failures.

Just my opinion and a newbie at best... :)

Dan

Tue May 20, 2025 10:53 am

NJ John wrote: After watching the newest episode. Maybe someone can have input on why the piston skirts broke?
Premature detonation.

FWIW. Clonebug is 99% right. Leaving 1% for a wildcard :-)

Tue May 20, 2025 11:12 am

NJ John wrote: After watching the newest episode. Maybe someone can have input on why the piston skirts broke?

My free guess is the extra heat.
Ring expanded further than gapped and became tight in the bore breaking the land and cocking the piston which broke the skirt.

Tue May 20, 2025 7:36 pm

Alstrup wrote: …
Premature detonation.

….

So, if it detonated at the appropriate time then itd have been fine?

I couldnt resist, i know what your meaning, however pre-ignition and detonation are different things and there’s no such thing as premature detonation.

Tue May 20, 2025 8:34 pm

Alexander_Monday wrote: NJ John wrote: After watching the newest episode. Maybe someone can have input on why the piston skirts broke?

My free guess is the extra heat.
Ring expanded further than gapped and became tight in the bore breaking the land and cocking the piston which broke the skirt.
This!

Remember that it happened on the runs they did with the belt off! No cooling! That was intentional suicide!

My guess is that if they had not done those last 2 runs with no cooling fan we would not be having this conversation.

Tue May 20, 2025 10:29 pm

I have been wondering why they keep doing runs with the fan belt off. The first time I understand, to determine how much power the fan draws. Once you know why keep beating up on the engine? You can't drive it with the belt off.

Testing the full size pulley vs a power pulley, and perhaps even testing the Porsche generator pulley that is a little smaller would be interesting. Testing the power draw of the doghouse cooling fan vs the smaller cooling fan used through 1970 would be interesting too.

Wed May 21, 2025 6:28 am

playing devil's advocate, y'all do realize how many vw engines out there run the 1/4 & 1/8 with no cooling tins / fans at all? granted those engines do get some air movement but most are also a lot more engine than what this one was, and they have burnout & staging time too, so those guys probably run a lot longer & harder and on a hot ass track than what these guys doing a couple Dyno pulls are.
I wouldn't have run it without but I get why they were.

Wed May 21, 2025 7:28 am

BFB wrote: and there’s no such thing as premature detonation.

They make a pill for that now... :lol:

Wed May 21, 2025 8:03 am

BFB wrote: playing devil's advocate, y'all do realize how many vw engines out there run the 1/4 & 1/8 with no cooling tins / fans at all? granted those engines do get some air movement but most are also a lot more engine than what this one was, and they have burnout & staging time too, so those guys probably run a lot longer & harder and on a hot ass track than what these guys doing a couple Dyno pulls are.
I wouldn't have run it without but I get why they were.

This.
We had fans on it between pulls, gave it plenty of time to cool down, checked head temps before doing a pull. All the things you don't see due to video editing.

Wed May 21, 2025 8:45 am

What were the rings gapped at?

Wed May 21, 2025 9:47 am

Alexander_Monday wrote: What were the rings gapped at?

Almost enough.