TheSamba.com :: View topic - Engine choice and build recommendations needed.

Wed Feb 12, 2025 4:55 pm

This may be a long post so please accept my apologies.

Background:
The engine is going in a full-weight 1970 Ghia Convertible. I have a built(?) single-side-cover gearbox that was given to me by a fellow Samba member. I have no specs for the gearbox but I will most likely investigate. My original plan was to do a Subaru conversion but now I am also considering staying ACVW. I am familiar with the concepts and theories behind engine building but lack knowledge of the implementation and specifics. Although I usually approach "The Manual" as the manufacturer's opinion, I recognize the need to RTFM in this application. This is why I'm turning to the more experienced among us for guidance.

Goal:
- Street/highway driving only ( max MPH +/- 85 )
- Ability to efficiently navigate a freeway on-ramp and safely merge into traffic
- Performance equal to a 3000 Lbs car with 120 HP and 112 lb-ft of torque ( 2023 Kia Rio )
- Reliable, long-life, cool-running engine
- Build it once and build it right ( or purchase QUALITY built long block )
- Ability to run A/C and still ascend an incline if I move out of Florida
- Reduced or minimal maintenance if possible ( not a requirement )
- Flat, usable torque curve - biased towards street/traffic driving
- Single carb if possible and/or suitable ( may do EFI and spark if budget allows )

Questions:
- What are the minimum torque and HP numbers required? ( Will consider rebuilding and regearing transaxle if applicable )
- What is the most suitable engine that balances power, streetability, and reliability?
- Given the average build cost of a quality ACVW motor (carb to muffler - $7K - $10K ), am I better off doing a Subaru swap? ( purist sensibilities considered but not strictly enforced )
- If ACVW, is there a formula, parts list, or build thread I can follow?

Cheers,
Emil

Wed Feb 12, 2025 5:02 pm

A well built, 1776 will move your car easily with traffic. 85mph is not realistic unless you have really tall gears.

You'll need a 3.875 r/p and a .082 top gear to cruise at 85mph.

I have that, but I also have a Berg 5 speed transaxle. In a 4 speed you'll have a large gap between 3rd and 4th.

Expect a quality 1776 to cost $$$$. I'm in the process of pricing a 1915, for a customer and using completely parts is in the $10,000 range just for parts. A 1776 is exactly the came cost.

Wed Feb 12, 2025 5:17 pm

Regarding the Subaru swap, What shape is the car in? If it's still in good shape, keep it VW. If it's been beat up and patched back together, Subaru is OK.

I'd build a 2L. 78x90.5, FK7, Panchito heads, Dual IDF. 3.88 r/p

Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:01 pm

Design the engine first, then choose the gearing.

Custom gears are expensive but engine conversions are....well, possibly, even more expensive when resale value is considered.

Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:05 pm

Thanks for the data. Valuable info that prompts a few follow-up questions.

- What can I realistically expect to spend on a well-built Berg 5-speed?

- The car is mostly in OE shape but some minor mods have been made.
-- Air cleaner stand removed ( but can be put back if needed )
-- Rear parcel area floor was cut out due to rot. The plan is to replace it with a removable fiberglass panel shaped and ribbed to match the OE metal.

- Based on my math I need about 80 Lb-Ft of torque to equal the relative numbers on my Kia.
I saw two different motors recommended.
- What HP/Tq can I expect out of a well-built 1776 vs the 78x90.5 ( didn't work out the displacement ) motor while using a single carb?

Please forgive my ignorance and provide corrections where needed.

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Emil

Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:15 pm

Evil_Fiz wrote: - What can I realistically expect to spend on a well-built Berg 5-speed?
$5000+

Mine was built with some expensive gears and a ZF LSD 25 years ago... then it was worth $6k complete.

Cry once.

Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:18 pm

Here's a slightly used one for $8500

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2725074

Wed Feb 12, 2025 7:38 pm

So we have to beat the kia..... on a flat windless road.... good challenge, tho around here there aren't any such things as flat roads with no wind.

To the west is the rocky mountains which has hills, and to the east is kansas, which has winds.

Thu Feb 13, 2025 7:32 am

modok wrote: So we have to beat the kia..... on a flat windless road.... good challenge... It sounds like I may be a tad unrealistic on what I am hoping for.
- What is a realistic outcome if I build a strong street engine with complementary gearing?

I am more interested in smooth driving characteristics, and the longevity of the engine and gearbox, than in all-out performance. I want a capable engine that won't be stressed out. This will be a weekend top-down driver built for comfort and casual driving.

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Emil

Thu Feb 13, 2025 8:01 am

I've been super-satisfied with performance of my 1835cc dual port engine, vintage aftermarket Weber carburetor, stock camshaft in VW sedan coupled to a stock factory transmission, stock clutch for over 4 decades now.

Should be even peppier in a Karmann Ghia due to aerodynamics.

So I agree with Glenn: 1776cc should be fine.

Thu Feb 13, 2025 8:30 am

Glenn wrote: A well built, 1776 will move your car easily with traffic. 85mph is not realistic unless you have really tall gears.

You'll need a 3.875 r/p and a .082 top gear to cruise at 85mph.

I rebuilt a '75 Bug for a buddy a while ago. Ditched the fuel injection, swapped in a warmed over dual port with a Solex 34 carb. Substantially exceeded the speed limit all afternoon and wrecked it later in the day I finished it. Well, my buddy wrecked it. I got another concussion outta the deal.

It's a real quick swap to use the single side cover trans from any mid- '70s Bug. The 3.88 differential was VW's answer to cruising at 65mph.

I've done New England to NYC and back any number of times on 4.37 gears.

My '70 Ghia may have been my most pleasant freeway ride. Cruise at 65- 70 with New Yorkers flowing around me like water.

Glenn wrote: Evil_Fiz wrote: - What can I realistically expect to spend on a well-built Berg 5-speed?
$5000+

Mine was built with some expensive gears and a ZF LSD 25 years ago... then it was worth $6k complete.

As much as I'd like to stuff a Berg 5 into one of my Bugs I'd use a Subaru 5 speed if there was any question of a Subaru swap in my future. The WRX 5 speed will handle 300 horsepower and it's geared to exactly match the Subi's powerband.

If you want 85mph cruise for real the Subi swap will do it.

Evil_Fiz wrote:
- What HP/Tq can I expect out of a well-built 1776 vs the 78x90.5 ( didn't work out the displacement ) motor while using a single carb?

There is usually some bottleneck or even an arbitrary limit that prevents you from hitting your marks. In this case it's the single carb. You're limited by what a single carb will flow. The usual answer is a giant single carb.

Next bottleneck is dual port end castings.

A single carb limits usable cam duration. I reckon 270- 275 degrees is all the duration you want.

This will probably come back to haunt me next un- tunable dual carb motor I build... either learn to tune and sync duals or spend more money at the shop where you spent $10k- $15k on your motor and transmission.

.
.

Thu Feb 13, 2025 8:52 am

Thats easy. Just build it Europeian inspired instead of Midwest style.
Can also be done with a stock style intake, but the build has to be somewhat more specific.

Thu Feb 13, 2025 9:22 am

I had a 2110 professionally built for my 1970 Beetle. It is a lot of fun and very capable on the street and highway. 90.5x82, 8.7:1 CR, GTV-2 heads, sump, Engle 110 cam, dual 44s. A-1 sidewinder exhaust 1 5/8". It's quick and sounds great. It's a take it out on nice days car. Great for day trips.

Thu Feb 13, 2025 11:12 am

First question is always if you want to run heaters or not...

And if so,
Do you want the additional heat and smaller expense of using factory heaters?
Or are you willing to spend a bunch more for less heat using oversized aftermarket heaters?
Or perhaps embark on the adventure of a gas heater?

If you want to use stock heater boxes,
Many choices/decisions are somewhat self-evident.
Hence you see a lot of similar engine combos out there.

Here's mine, and why the combo ended up like it did.
Still my favorite engine years later.
Have a few bigger ones sitting here but can't bring myself to install them.
This one just does so very much for what it is.
Big thanks to Torben and BrianE for the magic combo.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=692654&highlight=beater

1776 has proven a great choice with certain upgrades.
You'll have to drive a Beetle at 85MPH before you decide it's something you want to do all of the time.
There are a LOT of things besides the powertrain that make the Kia drive like it does on the highway vs. a Beetle.

Thu Feb 13, 2025 1:25 pm

Clatter wrote: First question is always if you want to run heaters or not...

And if so,
Do you want the additional heat and smaller expense of using factory heaters?
Or are you willing to spend a bunch more for less heat using oversized aftermarket heaters?
Or perhaps embark on the adventure of a gas heater?

If you want to use stock heater boxes,
Many choices/decisions are somewhat self-evident.
Hence you see a lot of similar engine combos out there.

Here's mine, and why the combo ended up like it did.
Still my favorite engine years later.
Have a few bigger ones sitting here but can't bring myself to install them.
This one just does so very much for what it is.
Big thanks to Torben and BrianE for the magic combo.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=692654&highlight=beater

1776 has proven a great choice with certain upgrades.
You'll have to drive a Beetle at 85MPH before you decide it's something you want to do all of the time.
There are a LOT of things besides the powertrain that make the Kia drive like it does on the highway vs. a Beetle.

x2 on this. My engine is not built for stock heater boxes and I wish it was because that's what I'm running now. I don't feel like buying the crappy 1 1/2" heater boxes that are just a J-tube wrapped in sheet metal, and I don't feel like dropping $600 on the aluminum heat sink 1 5/8" heater boxes which are too big for my motor.

Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:24 pm

The feedback so far is much appreciated and many good points have been made.

Let me clarify a few things:
- I am not planning on heater boxes. This will be a fair-weather car so seat heaters may be the most I need. Motor-driven A/C will most likely be installed but I am flexible on that point.
- When I said 85 MPH max, I meant it as the upper limit of speed for the vehicle. My highway cruising speed rarely exedes 70.
- The Kia is used ONLY as a reference for the power to weight ratio needed to safely move the car under load and with the A/C running.
- Yes, all supporting mods will be included: Disc all around, urethane bushings, a fully rebuilt stock-width beam with outer bearings and inner Delrin bushings, Koni RED shocks, 2" drop all around, and an air dam up front to keep lift to a minimum (still working on the design).

My takeaway so far:
1776 - 2000 cc motor
Dual carbs or EFI
5-speed gearbox with tall gears
$10K - $15K for engine and gearbox
OE Doghouse shroud with thermostat and venturi ring
Full set of tins including Hoover bit and industrial tins for max cooling
Extra oil sump
???

Thank you all for your contributions. Please feel free to add any additional advice you see fit. I know my limitations and trust those who know more than me to get me going in the right direction.

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Emil

Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:40 pm

Evil_Fiz wrote: - Yes, all supporting mods will be included: Disc all around, urethane bushings,
Emil
Front disc are more than enough, most rear disc kits are crap.

Urethane bushings fall apart quickly, just get HD rubber ones.

Thu Feb 13, 2025 4:20 pm

Glenn wrote: Evil_Fiz wrote: - Yes, all supporting mods will be included: Disc all around, urethane bushings,
Emil
Front disc are more than enough, most rear disc kits are crap.

Urethane bushings fall apart quickly, just get HD rubber ones. Are you recommending an upgrade to the OE brakes on the Ghia such as Wilwood Dynalite calipers or better compound pads, or should I Just keep the OE disc setup?

Re. HD Rubber bushings, do you have a source or link?

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Emil

Thu Feb 13, 2025 4:30 pm

I would skip the 5 speed trans unless you have money to burn. Stick with the 3.88 r/p and a strong motor.

2110 or 2180 in good form, good dual carbs will push it along easily. Budget $10k for a well built motor.

Even a 1835 would work fine. Pick your builder wisely

Thu Feb 13, 2025 4:46 pm

Once you decide you don't need to defog the windshield,
It gets easier to just build around big valves and a header.
Costs about the same as well.

My 1776 with heaters would probably beat the Kia at a stop light,
but certainly not racing to New York.

Berg5 is certainly a big undertaking with little gain in terms of practical street driving IMHO.
A good motor won't have problems dealing with a bit wider spread of gear ratios.
You'll save yourself a bunch of rowing through gears anyways.

Maybe you can find someone with a built motor to give you a ride or let you drive their car?

Come my Santa Cruz and I can let you try a couple.

I'd be inclined to build for torque and a broad powerband.
An engine done right with a good combo can work a lot better than one thrown together with parts that look good at the time.