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Thu Nov 27, 2025 7:27 pm

So I just acquired a nice 1969 Karmann ghia. It's currently stock with a dual port 1600 (would of had a 1600 SP from factory). I want to keep it stock looking as the car is very original, but want it to merge into modern traffic lol.
So I know dual carbs and a simple 1776 would do what I want, but that would kill the stock look this car has and would require the factory air cleaner mount to be removed which I'm not willing to do.

So stockish carb and heater box are staying. I have some left overs from another project to keep the cost down. I know it over kill tho but it's what I have.

Dual relief case bore for 94mm and stroker clearance
86mm CW crank
5.5" H beam rods
Mahle 94mm B pistons and cylinders
Single port heads cut for 94mm
CB 31mm big foot lifters
Scat 1.25 pro rockers

Things I'm thinking on are
-39mm pict3 carburetor
-CB performance stock carb center section
-CB 2209 cam or CB2280, would love to know more about the 2209?
Exhaust that looks factory and sounds factory that will support 2386cc of 90 ish HP lol
I am aware that the displacement is way large for a stock carb build but I already have it and want to use it. Any input is welcome and yes it is stupid to not use duals but it's what I want to do.

Thu Nov 27, 2025 7:48 pm

It’s no secret that i cant stand pict carbs but i do like oddball shit…
I have a buddy with i think a 2110 in bus running a pict carb, ive never ridden in it but he’s ticked pink with how it runs and im pretty sure he did it for stock appearance too.

Maybe you could bore out the pict carb to get more cfm? Used to be one like that on the classifieds

Thu Nov 27, 2025 8:11 pm

Amazon sells 39mm pict new. Not sure how god they are tho

Thu Nov 27, 2025 9:45 pm

You could modify a German 34-PICT 3 to suit you engine. Machine the venturi oversize and re-jet.

This was done by Art Thraen several years ago, I didn't do it but it's fairly routine for engines on SCORE cars that have to run the 34-PICT but modifications are free. (sorry for out of focus photos). This size of venturi was for a 2085 (92 x 78.4).

Thu Nov 27, 2025 10:09 pm

I would have to run the numbers, but a 2387cc with stock single port heads will probably choke around 4000rpm. Maybe even less if you plan to leave the heads stock. Are you expecting it to be a total tractor engine??

You could put 37mm intakes in the heads, and do a bunch of work to them, and it might rev to 4500rpm.

It just sounds like a plugged up combo to me. The heads will probably run hot because of the tiny exhaust valves, big displacement, and heater boxes. The intake manifold will also need some work because the engine will be quite wide.

I know some guys like oddball difficult combos, but you would probably be better off building it with a stock crank and cheap A pistons. At least it would give it a more user friendly and realistic RPM range.

Brian

Fri Nov 28, 2025 6:35 am

The definition of a super sleeper varies :roll:
If 90ish hp is the goal, there is NO idea in going larger than 2 liter. 2110 max. Larger just makes for a lazier engine which will also be significantly more complicated to tune.

Fri Nov 28, 2025 6:57 am

The reason for such large displacement is I already have it. Yes the heads would be ported. Might do dual ports as most people have no idea what should have had a single port anyway. I do understand it would be a tractor engine. I Built a turbo 2220 (94x80 stroke) single port a few years ago with a 2236 cam and that was fun; but boost is totally different Than a stock carburetor. Want to keep it stock looking and use what I have to keep cost down.

Fri Nov 28, 2025 8:56 am

matthewl wrote:

So stockish carb and heater box are staying. I have some left overs from another project to keep the cost down. I know it over kill tho but it's what I have.

Exhaust that looks factory and sounds factory that will support 2386cc of 90 ish HP lol

2 things that come to mind. CSP has larger diameter heater boxes. Vintage speed would be worth looking into for exhaust

Fri Nov 28, 2025 9:07 am

Alstrup wrote: The definition of a super sleeper varies :roll:
..... more complicated to tune.

would it being termed "semi sleeper" make you feel better about it? although that just makes me think of a an 18 wheeler so I guess thats no good...

im all for using what you have BUT there's no point in limiting the engines capabilities to do so. on the other hand, its your engine and if it suits your expectations and your happy then thats all that matters.

Fri Nov 28, 2025 11:12 am

Alstrup wrote: The definition of a super sleeper varies :roll:
If 90ish hp is the goal, there is NO idea in going larger than 2 liter. 2110 max. Larger just makes for a lazier engine which will also be significantly more complicated to tune.

I tend to agree with this opinion.

Lately I have discovered translated episodes of "Auto test" with Rainer Gunzler from the 60's and 70's....and he repeatedly uses a term to describe an engine in a car they are testing as "elastic" or "not elastic enough".

Yes, all but a couple of cars they have tested were water cooled but its actually pretty amazing the performance they got out of 1100, 1200, 1300 and 1500 CC engines in the cars back in the late 60's and early 70's....when 90hp was a fast winding rocket. A lot was about the gears paired to it but the gist was engines that had enough torque not to lug easily in the lower midrange before a gear shift and could be wound out rpm wise to get what was needed at the upper end.

When you watch enough of these sme models moving to larger and larger engines...yes...there was a period of time when the same engine got large enough that it no longer rewarded the driver willing to push it and drive with the "shifter" more than the right pedal.

Ray

Fri Nov 28, 2025 12:48 pm

Just curious, why is there such a large value placed on keeping the stock air filter setup?

Because vws are so rare now, you could have a type 4 or type 1 engine, a turbo tucked away, idas, idfs, or a stock airbox and 98% of the population wouldnt know the difference.

Just having a fast old vw is rare and unique in itself.

I can appreciate if you just have your own goals though. To see how much you can squeeze out of the stock appearing setup.

Fri Nov 28, 2025 2:10 pm

For the US market I kinda follow what you say Jeff. But, as I have said before, some people just should not, and do not want to mess with dual carbs.
In Europe the rule book is vastly different in some countries, so dual carbs and open filters are basicly illegal on the street. So we turn to other solutions.
That said, I am one of the people who has done a bit of investigation into this since my country is one of the more restricted places. This means that today we can build a bus style 1835 stocker plus with 85-88 hp and 155 Nm torque, with a very flat torque curve, - or my - shall we call it exellence version with 95 hp / 165 Nm torque. Still with stock like behavior. 2 liters in the 105-120 hp range and 2332/2386´s with 140 hp and 220-230 Nm torque. Still almost stock appearance.
But, these engines are of course built with selected parts and not something you build out of leftovers.

Fri Nov 28, 2025 2:52 pm

matthewl wrote: Amazon sells 39mm pict new. Not sure how god they are tho

Made by Thundermingo. I run their idf48s in my “sleeper” build, They have been excellent.

Fri Nov 28, 2025 3:22 pm

The 140 hp version requires a modified 39 mm, or even better, a Wensing 39 pict.

Fri Nov 28, 2025 3:41 pm

jpaull wrote: Just curious, why is there such a large value placed on keeping the stock air filter setup?

Because vws are so rare now, you could have a type 4 or type 1 engine, a turbo tucked away, idas, idfs, or a stock airbox and 98% of the population wouldnt know the difference.

Just having a fast old vw is rare and unique in itself.

I can appreciate if you just have your own goals though. To see how much you can squeeze out of the stock appearing setup.

A couple of reasons that I observe. In this thread, the reason stated would be so it "looks" like a stock engine but could/would in reality be faster. Hence, the old school street racing term.....a sleeper.
Never been interested in the concept myself. Knew lots of people in high school who did a fair amount of roasting the tires and racing light to light. If their car looked or sounded too bad ass....they got no takers who wanted to play.

So if it looked and sounded stock but really wasn't....they were thrilled.

I kind of agree with your point.
Unless they are going to get out and ask if they can look under the hood.....outside of that it looks like an old vw right? You could have a 2.8L with a vintage speed muffler and if the car "looked" stock....you have achieved the sleeper affect without keeping all of the limiting stock parts.

That said, the only other non-high performance reason I can see to keep the stock air cleaner is that the oil bath air cleaners.....when properly SIZED and MAINTAINED will filter finer than most dry filters. But they limit velocity and if your engine volume gets too large.....it can create more velocity than the air cleaner can deal with. Ray

Fri Nov 28, 2025 4:35 pm

The main reason for the stock air cleaner is the mount which it sits on. It is welded to the engine compartment and will not let dual carbs clear ( had a ghia in my 20's and cut that thing right off just to fit kadrons lol) this car is clean and very original and I don't want to hack it all up. Its a cruiser not a Saturday night special. And I already have the short block for a 2386 why spend money on building a 1900 when I already have the parts , yes it would be a much better combo with some mild ported 40x35 heads and a 40 idf and a fk7 cam but I want to keep it stock looking. It's getting hard to find stuff that is not all modified. For speed I have a Meyers Manx to fill that itch.

Fri Nov 28, 2025 4:43 pm

I had a Beetle that was the opposite. I'd pull up somewhere and people would say wow, that sounds serious, what engine have you got in there?
It was a bone stock 1200 with cone shaped tail pipes but it did sound deep and "big" at idle. :)

Fri Nov 28, 2025 7:06 pm

This thing needs to be built. I’d used dual port heads at least, but would be very interested in hearing how it drives when you get done. Pleas keep us posted.

Sat Nov 29, 2025 10:06 am

Some GOOD dual port 40x35 heads, Wensing intake manifolds and center section, and Wensing 39 pict carb. Gutted stock air cleaner. Vintage Speed SS143 exhaust with dual tips

It’s going to be a lump, but exponentially better than any single port derivative

Sat Nov 29, 2025 10:19 am

Yes. heads which has been done to accomodate such a set up.
The cam is the most specific part of such a build. Almost no off the shelf sulution works well. Think assymmetrical.

If it is built like the OP suggests it will have the behavior of a 34 (40 US) hp 1200, only about 2½ times more power.