Fuel pump blanking plate?

RatCamper · Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 8:47 pm Post subject: Fuel pump blanking plate?

Hello,

I have been looking at fuel pump blanking plates online for type4. They look to be just a fancy plate with a couple of bolts. Is this the case?

If that's all they are I'm going to make my own. Mostly because I need to add my own electric pump mount because of a lack of space elsewhere to put it.
Right now the pump is awkwardly attached to the back of the tinware near one of the heater flaps.

It's not one of those box shaped facet pumps. It's essentially an electric diaphragm pump, if that makes sense. So it's a large-ish cylinder which stubbornly refuses to fit anywhere.

This leads me to another question. Does somebody have a measurement of the distance between bolt hole centres for the mech fuel pump? I want to make up my plate before I pull the pump off.

Thankyou.

atmellovw · Posted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 10:38 pm Post subject:

I measure 1.75 inches or 44.45 mm.
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RatCamper · Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:23 am Post subject:

Much appreciated!

fusername · Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:02 am Post subject:

also, it is exactly the same as the block off plate from a beetle. gotta love VW cost saving measures. Its nice having parts from two totally different motors fit. the vanagon watercooled motors actually use the same plate as well. Maybe you have one of those blocks lying around?
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raygreenwood · Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 2:59 pm Post subject:

StOP! Wait!
You need to be careful when you blank off the type 4 fuel pump hole. In the fuel injected models...this area was never machined through...so it has no problem. In the carbureted ones.....there is a bushing that the fuel pump rod goes through to make contact with the cam.
If this bushing is not properly in place when you block it off...a huge portion of your oil pressure simply vents from the main galley to the sump. You should serach here and on the type 4rum and 411/412 forum at STF. Its important this is done correctly. Ray

RatCamper · Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:48 pm Post subject:

Dodged a bullet there! Thanks raygreenwood.

I searched here previously to asking, but I couldn't find anything. Wrong search terms maybe?

I'll have a bit more of a look.

fusername · Posted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:12 pm Post subject:

I thought that if you just left the pushrod in there it would stop the oil from flushing out like mad. Also, I thought that boss was the last stop in the oil flow anyways. I have a vanagon case infront of me and it looks to be the final stop in the oil flow, so I wouldn't think that would be a problem. I have been wrong before tho...

Not having a mech pump case infront of me, I don't want to guess at it, but I don't see what would happen. Enlighten me?
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Wildthings · Samba Member Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 52690

If you were to not have the pushrod in place, I would think that the galley on that side would have lower than normal oil pressure. Might cause a problem, and might not. I have heard people claim that it does not. Never been down that road myself.

fusername · Posted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 5:19 pm Post subject:

I don;t see the issue, but better safe than sorry, why not leave it in. Hey ray, you still following us?
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RatCamper · Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:10 am Post subject:

I want to pull out the mechanical pump because there just isn't enough room for the electric pump unless I put it on the other side of the transmssion which doesn't exactly appeal to me.

1977_L63H_P27 · Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:41 am Post subject:

RatCamper · Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 6:15 am Post subject:

1977_L63H_P27 · Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:02 am Post subject:

RatCamper · Posted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 4:39 pm Post subject:

I see.

Through some miracle I still have the pump mount plate from whatever it was pulled from. It is made out of very tough HT steel, and has two holes, which unfortunately aren't flush, so I'll have to use a big shim (a nut or something) as a spacer.

I'll have to wait until I can get some more fuel hose to fit it, as what I have running from the pump to the carb is a bit too short.

fusername · Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:01 pm Post subject:

so did you get the block off plate all sorted?
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RatCamper · Posted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:08 pm Post subject:

No. Not as yet.

People just seem to be speculating about the correct way of doing it. The last thing I want is to cause an internal oil hemorrhage.

Oil Phil-M · Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:26 am Post subject:

Fortunately I had my case split apart when I was doing this so I could make sense of all of the conflicting comments. This is what I believe to be the situation.

The fuel pump pushrod is not under any direct oil pressure. Oil that has sqeezed out of the front cam bearing floods this pushrod-camshaft interface area up and then flows into the oil cavity (or oil pan if it actually had one) through a passageway. I image there is some buildup of oil creating a driving force to push oil down the pushrod bore but having or not having a pushrod inplace will not be impacting the oil pressure at the front cam bearing.

The pushrod SLEEVE is the critical component. The camshaft oil passageway which runs 90 degrees to the fuel pump pushrod bore was created by boring from the front of the case behind the flywheel. This oil passageway and the pushrod tube bore are on the same plane and intersect. Afterwards the case received a sleeve for the pushrod which sealed off the cam oil passageway. THis effectively making the plug behind the flywheel in this area redundant. If you read any articles about putting in threaded oil passage plugs this is the reason why you don't need to do this particular plug and infact by trying to do it can mess things up severly.

If for some reason the SLEEVE is removed or damaged in the area of the cam oil passage then you will have a major oil problem and will require the cam bearing passage way to be tapped and sealed then the outer plug behind the flywheel.

Based on what I saw I found the comments made by those who said it was ok to leave the pushrod out to be credible. I left my pushrod out and used a Type 1 blockoff plate to seal off the pump mounting area.

Wildthings · Samba Member Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 52690

RatCamper · Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:49 pm Post subject:

That was a thorough explanation, which I think I'll only understand after my morning coffee Smile

The type1 blanking plate is just a fancy cast piece that is functionally equivalent to a flat plate, isn't it?
I know the plate on my beetle was just a chunk of thick plate / strap with holes in it. Never leaked a drop. After the mech pump failed I ran a facet pump salvaged from an old Mazda 929, then the big Mitsubishi unit, which is the same unit I am fitting to my bay again.
Yes, again. In the past, after the second engine failure I was using it, ziptied to the frame. It helped me eliminate lack of fuel as the culprit.

It was only recently I reconnected the mech, even though I was aware of the problems. Ie the output pipe wants to roam free, it seeps oil from its mount, and seeps fuel from everywhere (or at least it seems that way).

I came across a mech pump rebuild kit for $25AU yesterday. Should I buy it / is it worth it on my pump? Should I continue with removing the mechanical pump?

fusername · Posted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:47 pm Post subject:

I like the mech pump just so I can say I have a mechanical fuel pump. There is beauty in simplicity.

but if you do remove it I found a block off plate you can have if you want. Just pm me your address.
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Need something custom bent up? shoot me an email, maybe we can make it work!

FORSALE: Thrust cut T4 and 1.9 main bearings


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