is it possible?

tolkien · Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 6:34 pm Post subject: is it possible?

hello everybody,
maybe an old question....or a stupid one! but....
anyone ever change the fuel tank sender in a late bay without dropping the engine? i have "heard" a few times that it is possible, id like to avoid engine removal if at all possible. i can deal with a bit of contortion ..and have under the dash and such..
if i remove all the top/side hardware, seems like there plenty of room to remove the firewall. any one know how much room between the top of the tank and the body? enough to yank the old and replace the new (not the old tube style) sender unit?
ive heard you can get the tank out too (though very difficult) if need be without eng. removal???
appreciate any thoughts..
thanks Very Happy

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79 ca transporter

trackwesty · Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 9:41 pm Post subject:

Try this old thread seems like he did it without the motor out.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=118922&highlight=tank+removal
It seems that I saw a picture of someone else taking the tank out without removing the motor but did not see it in my search
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tolkien · Posted: Sat Sep 17, 2005 10:52 pm Post subject: thanks

i knew id seen it here, its gotta be possible, i know most would suggest dropping the engine and the whole deal, and id love to/will one day, but live in a condo, where "no automotive work" etc, gotta small garage for basic stuff, but cant really get away with that project currently, plus itd probably take me forever... (dont have jack stands or a atv jack etc)
and i'd love to have working fuel gauge, dont plan to remove tank either, seems fine, very little rust anywhere on this one,changed all fuel lines, filter was clear etc. just wonder if i can get the sender in there & attach the 2 wires with everything in place, im gonna try it here soon enough, must be done
thanks for the thread
keith
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79 ca transporter

DurocShark · Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:47 am Post subject:

Hey, I got referenced! WooHoo! Laughing

I'm in the same situation. I live in an apartment complex where the neighbors call the cops on me when I'm working on the bus. Sigh.

It really wasn't too bad. The tank just took some finangling to get it out. I could have saved quite a few curse words if I had thought to remove the output from the bottom BEFORE pulling the tank. Embarassed

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No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow.

VWLover77 · Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 5:17 am Post subject:

Apparently the previous owner of my 78 Westy replaced the fuel tank sender without removing anything. There is an access hole cut in the sheet metal above the sender, with a replacement plate now covering the hole. Not sure the plate is available anymore but you could probably make one with some sheet metal.

My old workshop manual for fuel-injected Bays says to measure 32 inches from the driver's side of the sheet metal (spare tire well side, include the spare tire well in your measurement), and 35 inches from the rear edge of the sheet metal (back of the Bus) for the center of the hole.

Not sure what you're supposed to cut it with as it says DO NOT USE a torch, grinding disc, or parting disc. Maybe drill a hole and use a nibbler.

As always, disconnect the battery ground cable before trying this!

Don
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Don

1978 Westy
1971 Super Beetle Convertible

"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." - J.R.R. Tolkien

busman78 · Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 8:02 am Post subject:

Done it all three ways. Pulling the engine - to much work! Wrangling the tank into the engine area with engine in - can you say abusive! VW had the plan, cut a hole, slip in a new sender, patch the hole and have a nice day. Unless some of the tank hoses need replaced, even with an engine out, I cut a hole to do a sender job.

cree · Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 9:45 am Post subject: Out of gas

I ran out of gas at 11pm on an major hwy the other night. Fuel guage does not work. Thanks for the measurements. Now it will be easy. Cree 79Bays

tolkien · Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 3:50 pm Post subject: thanks all

i gotta get this done..yeah i ran out of gas recently with wife and 1 yr old, had to run back home in flip flops, not the best timing, went to pick up some photos, and it took longer than expected in the drive up, shoulda cut the engine, my gas/mileage/math was apparently off..i even write it down..knew i was close to empty but also close to home..and i drove past a couple stations on the way albeit the "overpriced" gas peddlers. so i gambled hoping i could drop of the family and venture for sub 3$ a gallon fuel prices..what good intentions i had, but for a little more... cough sputter..ah stoplight..red-face..agghhh..horns..push push sweat.. red curb...and im running home, cue the tired baby criying and...the next job, cnat put it off..
about the hatch, i have heard of people using a marine/boat style hatch as well...
i think i have a copy of the measurements and a crude insructions for this procedure. ill see if i can find it and post.
so now i know it is possible to remove tank with engine in place..great news...but i was thinking/hoping i could change the sender without cutting the access door or removing the tank, just squeezing it in there wiring it all with tank and engine in place once i removed the firewall.. anyone think the sender could come out with the tank in place, and vice versa with the new sender?
thanks again for all the replies..

keith
keith
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79 ca transporter

VWLover77 · Posted: Sun Sep 18, 2005 4:04 pm Post subject:

Can't be done. The sender sticks a good way down into the tank, and has the float on the end of a rod. No way is there enough room to get it out, let alone get the new one in.

Don
_________________
Don

1978 Westy
1971 Super Beetle Convertible

"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world." - J.R.R. Tolkien

cree · Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:12 am Post subject: Sender Not-Float

I cut the hole. 1 inch counter clockwise turn and remove. Float filled with gas. Microscopic pinhole where the sender rod attaches around the plastic float. I cut a 1/4 in hole in the end of the float and filled it with insulating foam, the kind that requires acetone for cleanup. After cureing of the foam I smeered the exposed foam with black majic, permatex gasket sealer. Let that dry and reattached the float to the sending rod and back in she went. Gas guage works now.
Measure 31 1/4 inches from the driver's side, side panel, that is in front of the spare tire and under the back window, to mark the center of the sender top. Then measure back, from the start of the bend of the floor, that has the engine access door, in back of the back seat back, to mark the center of the top of the sender top. Drill or cut a 3 1/2 hole. You can remove the sending unit thru this size or bigger hole if you like. This is on my 79 Bay.
I tried to see if you could remove the sending unit without cuting the hole. No way on the 79 could it be done. The top of the sending unit is in a depresion in the top of the tank and there is not enough room to get it past the top of the tank. You might get it loose and lift it out of the depression but there is not enough room between the top of the tank and the floor to get it out. At least on my 79 Bay. Also, the back seat back attachment posts on each side of the side walls can be used as a reference for a center mark. If you would attach a string between the center of the posts that the seat back hooks on to, that string would bisect the center of the sending unit top on the gas tank.
I could try to give a more detailed explaination of where the sending unit top is but then my head would explode, and who would clean up that mess on my keyboard? Not the wife I'll tell you. Maybe my 2 dogs would? But then they would get into a food fight and who would clean up that mess?--- Not the wife I'll tell you.
Cree 79Bays

tolkien · Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 8:34 am Post subject: great

thanks don and cree very good to know, i got a 79 too cree, guess i ll cut the hole. what did you use to slice her up? fill the hole?pics would be supah'
thanks againfor all the help
keith
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79 ca transporter

jberger · Samba Member Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 2476

It would be nice to repair the hole with a: flange welded under the perimeter of the hole with a few threaded holes, a reusable rubber gasket and a few counter sunk screws through the cover. Would make many a hack job look like a factory option.

jtauxe · Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:11 am Post subject:

So you're cutting a hole through the floor above the gas tank and sending unit. How much space is there between the floor and the top of the tank? If you're doing this with a hole saw, is there any danger of punching/drilling into the top of the gas tank? Shocked

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John
"Travelling in a fried-out Kombi, on a hippie trail, head full of zombie..." - Colin Hay and Ron Strykert
http://vw.tauxe.net
1969 Transporter, 1971 Westfalia, 1976, 1977, 1976, 1977, 1971, 1973, 1977 Westfalias,
1979 Champagne Sunroof, 1974 Westfalia Automatic, 1979 Transporter, 1972 Sportsmobile, 1973 Transporter Wild Westerner, 1974 Westfalia parts bus, 1975 Mexican single cab *FOR SALE*, 1978 Irish 4-door double cab RHD

jberger · Samba Member Joined: November 17, 2003 Posts: 2476

hambone · Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 11:31 am Post subject:

There must be a design flaw with 70s VW fuel senders, I hear so many stories of them failing. My previous 73' super failed, and my friend's 74' westy too, not to mention all of you on Samba. It just seems that the later in the 70s it got, the quality at VW (maybe everywhere?) started slipping...

busman78 · Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 12:10 pm Post subject:

I drill a 2-1/5" hole then trim out a rectangle with metal shears. Fit up a 22-24 ga metal cover, sealant and four sheet metal screws and the spice will flow.

It was not a quality issue, more like a complicated design issue. Take your old sender apart and you will be amazed that someone could even dream up the functionality. VW had already cured the erractic reading problem with the 68 T1 but continued with the "Can" for the bus and T3.

tolkien · Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 2:49 pm Post subject: sounds like its a go

..as soon as i get the time
thanks for the good advices.
i guess really there will always be the ever present fire danger no matter what ya cut with.. so what about a dremmel?? cut disc any more dangerous. kinda skechy stuff huh?
tk care all ya'll
k Very Happy

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79 ca transporter

busman78 · Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 3:53 pm Post subject:

Dremel is high speed, the disks launch sparks. Drills are slow, jig saw is slow, less heat no sparks.

cree · Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2005 5:31 pm Post subject: Fuel sending unit removal

I drilled a hole with a 5/16 in masonery bit. It's what we locksmiths use to drill safes and anything with hard plate steel. Try it. They work great on steel.
My foam filled float was full of gas today. I'll have to try something else.
In the light of day I took a good look to see if the sending unit can be removed with the firewall removed. Yes it can be done, at least on my 79 Bay. With the wires off, turn counter clockwise and pull the top of the sender up and tilt to the drivers side. The gas tank is sloped toward the back of the back seat. There is enough room to tilt and move or slide the unit along the front top part of the tank that is sloped and the metal floor where it turns down to the back of the back seat. That is move it toward the spare tire side of the tank. It looks like there is enough room to go around the top side of the drivers side portion of the gas tank and exit the fire wall area that has been removed. I would imagine that it is going to be hard to unscrew the sender cap from the top of the tank by reaching over the top of the tank. Not too much room untill the back side top of the tank where it slopes down towards the front of the Bus. I used a screwdriver and drifted it around counterclockwise with taps from a hammer. I guess that a 1 X 2 with 2 short nails in it could be used as a wrench to unscrew the sender. It only needs to turn 1 inch counterclockwise to be removed. there are 4--- 1/4 inch slots--- cut in the sender top rim.
I'll try to take some pic's tonight. Cree 79Bays

tolkien · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 9:30 pm Post subject:

hey cree,
thanks for the info, been out of town away from the computer,
sounds like it'll be really fun 'but possible"to try and take it out, sorry about your float fix not working out too. i havent been driving much lately, i gotta run out a full tank of gas before i do anything, i may wind up cutting the access door just for futures sake, but i am gonna try to do it first without, i am hard headed, thanks again cree
keith
_________________
79 ca transporter


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