porche cooling system

rearenddude · Samba Member Joined: February 13, 2008 Posts: 80

In a previous thread I requested some info on a porche style cooling system.
one of the responses reads "why are you interested in an in-efficient cooling system?".
I was under the impression that this system was superior to stock VW.

I am very interested in all opinions here, as these systems are expensive.

stoneloco808 · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:03 am Post subject:

Taken from this thread, its a sticky above, http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=153387

Jake Raby · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 9:07 am Post subject:

Do searches and you'll see that the VW engine and the Porsche engine are different in just about every regard. For years the unsuspecting public (myself included) "thought" that if a system would cool a Porsche 6 cylinder it would do the same for a VW engine.

This has been proven inaccurate to say the least and many engines that once donned the Porsche system have now been re-fitted with the stock VW system, or my DTM.

It's all available in the search function.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

Jimmy111 · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:38 am Post subject:

The problem is not in the fan or really the system. All the people who manufacture the shrouds do a very bad job of it and the air is not directed well or evenly to the cylinders. It is possible for someone to make a really good porsche system for a VW but no one has done it yet.

Jake Raby · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:53 am Post subject:

Glenn · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 10:57 am Post subject:

Jimmy111 · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:04 am Post subject:

It is really not so hard to do. It is just that the people designing the aftermarket systems have little knowledge or understanding of the technical aspects of the system. They are mostly after the coolness factor. Coolness sells.

Jake Raby · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:30 am Post subject:

Yep, coolness sells today with few cars being daily drivers.

Glenn,
I have replicated and updated the dual inlet fan and have recently created the mold for the fiberglass housing of the "X4CS" cooling system.

I spent a solid week in Wyoming with Bill Doyle doing solid works modeling and getting data from real 4 cam Carrera engines to assist with the newest addition to my DTM line...

I'll be done with it in mid 2009.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

Glenn · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:35 am Post subject:

Will it be a true "bolt in" or will it require some trimming like the DTM?
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Jake Raby · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 11:39 am Post subject:

Trimming will be necessary and should be.. Because no two engines are the same and why leave big gaps for air to escape just to make it "easier to fit".
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

Lionhart94010 · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject:

Jake,

The 2009 ETA is that for the T4 only or for both T1 & T4 Carrera style cooling systems?

Also based on comments from Bob Hover:

"The maximum sustainable power available from any air-cooled engine is determined by the engine's ability to cool itself -- to couple its waste-heat to the atmosphere. And with a carburetted, spark-ignited, gasoline-fueled engine there is a lot of waste heat to be managed since such engines are no more than 25% efficient when it comes to converting the heat of combustion into torque at the crankshaft. That means that for every horsepower measured at the crank you must generate at least four horsepower's-worth of heat in combustion..."

http://bobhooversblog.blogspot.com/2008/02/another-100hp-vw-conversion.html

Can you please give us a ballpark figures for maximum sustainable power when using your current DTM system for T1. I like to go camping in mountains witch means I have to clime some long steep grades and would like to keep my engine HP(running at 3500-4000 RPM) within the ability of the Your DTM setup to cool it…

Regards,

Andre

Jake Raby · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:43 pm Post subject:

Cooling capability of an engine will forever determine the effectiveness of the cooling system it is coupled to.

If you have an aplication that is using 100% of it's output (like a Bus climbing a mountain) the max HP per cylinder I have used with a DTM is 40HP. At that level the engine was 160HP, not many people with an engine that large and powerful can sustain load long enough to use 10% of it's power.

The components that comprise the engine will determine this much more than the cooling system and things like Nickies cylinders give the engine a HUGE edge.

I plan on debuting the TI version of the Carrera system before the TIV version.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

Jimmy111 · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:14 pm Post subject:

The majority of the cooling in a VW engine is not from the fan. It is from the exhaust and the incoming air thru the induction system and just plain convection cooling from the exposed metal surfaces. This is why a free flowing head and exhaust system is so important.
Believe it or not a VW motor produces MORE heat than is supplied to it by the gasoline. This can be as high as 3 times as much heat as is burned in the gasoline. Most of this excess heat is supplied by heat of compression so the higher your compression ratio, the more heat your motor will develop.
\The fans primary use is to get air around the motor. If you take a stock motor out, remove all the shrouds and just set it on the ground and run it with no shroud, it wont get much above 400 CHT. I have done this in many cases with engines modified as air compressors and hydraulic pumps. The fans purpose is to get the air into the area where the motor is. Now, most people will never see the constand 40hp per cylinder that jake mentioned. They might reach their peak HP for a minute or so but in reality most people will only use 30 or 40 hp from their 160hp motor. The bigest problem that most people have whgen it comes to overheating is improperly set up oil system, bad ignition management and improper F/A mixture. A lot can be done to address overheating issues by just concentrating on those issues.

rearenddude · Samba Member Joined: February 13, 2008 Posts: 80

wow, i asked for opinions and i got them.

but let me be clear, i do not doubt the stock type 1 cooling system in a car designed for it, however my car came stock with a water-cooled engine.

as with a beatle the fiat also required air "closure" around the motor to direct the air flow correctly, however this is prooving to be a difficult task.
It would be a simpler task if the fan drew its incoming air from the generator side.

so therfore my question in reguards to the Porche style system.
prehaps i should ask if anyone has made a type 1 system draw air from the generator side?

rearenddude · Samba Member Joined: February 13, 2008 Posts: 80

again im very new to VW
can you tell me what a DTM is?

Jimmy111 · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:30 pm Post subject:

Type 3 motor would probably work better.
DTM is Jakes down the middle cooling system.

Lionhart94010 · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject:

Thanks Jake,

That is valuable information, for my next motor! How much more do you think the Carrera style T1 cooler will be capable cooling?

Jimmy111,

Due to the size and design of the T1 Motor, cylinder head compared to the other air cooled motors I have been looking at for inspiration, I am concerned most about the heat they can dissipate, I agree that the motor must be looked at as a set of interdependent systems.

I have several "Bus" engines in the works, on my 2007cc 78x90 I will use the following parts to address the heat question:

Standard VW FI Fans shroud with velocity Ring(I have two different models one seems to have more development that the other)
I don't believe that I will be able to use a DTM with this setup because I’m using a Stock VW FI intake connected to CB FI end castings; I know that the CB FI end castings will limit intake air but they are larger than the Factory 1600cc FI intakes and this will not be a high revving motor, I need the lower end torque.

CB Center mount Fuel injection with a dash mounted Innovate F/A meter, to keep an eye on F/A
(I am limited to center mount FI because of the BN4 heater taking up lots of valuable space in Driver side of engine bay)

Full Flow Oil filter with thermostatically controlled external oil cooler, I have found several Thermostats ranging from 170 to 190, (I am leaning toward the 190 as it hopefully will only be needed on long hills and hot summer freeway driving, the stock or T4 cooler doing it for normal driving)

Originally, I was going to use an MSD-6 AL-2 with a stock SVDA distributor but I am now thinking of using a Mallory Unilite after reading many postings on thesamba.

Heads are CB 044 and have 40 x 35.5mm
Exhaust is 1 ½ Merged
Current compression ration is set to 7.2:1
Scat C25 Cam w/Stock Rockers
This motor will probably not make 160hP :0)

The DTM or Carrera style cooer will be for my 82x90.5 or some LN Nikes from Jake if I can afford them. (I already have most of mechanical long block parts)

For that motor I am hoping for 150-200 HP :0) It will have a MegaSquirt FI & ignition control and I will build a custom optimized air intake for it, and apply any and all lessons leaned from the data I collect from my 2007cc FI T1 motor.

rearenddude,

DTM stands for Down The Middle, it is a custom made cooling shroud currently being made and sold by Jake Raby
www.aircooledtechnology.com

I would think that keeping the incoming air coming from stock setup would be the simples way to go, the VW fan sits pretty close to the fire wall...
Can you post some pictures of your engine compartment to get an idea of what you are faced with?

rearenddude · Samba Member Joined: February 13, 2008 Posts: 80

a photo.
the bar directly behind the carbs and shroud is the engine mount.
the motor "hangs" from the top two tranny bolts.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

rearenddude · Samba Member Joined: February 13, 2008 Posts: 80

sorry, crappy photo.
a good view of the engine bay is on this web site.
click the "home" tab above and in the galley search box type "fiat" then pick "go"
on page 2 you will be able to get the photo I sent in a viewable size.

Jimmy111 · Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 7:14 pm Post subject:

You got one that has a few thousand more pictals in it??


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