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Cracked seam - rust?
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blackglasspirate
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 10:15 am    Post subject: Cracked seam - rust? Reply with quote

Ok, so, I wrote a post not too long ago about a seam by the drivers door that had cracked sealant and the slightest hint of what might be rust.
( http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=227149 )

I hadn't had time to deal with it until I took a summer vacation, which is now. I was just inspecting the other seams and noticed that a few looked kind of cracked, but not rusted, maybe they just dryed up?

Anyway, I also found this behind the rear passenger wheel. As you can see, the vertical seam is cracked open. The horizontal one is cracked with the slightest hint of rust in one or two places.
Also, I noticed what looks like a little bubbling by the gas cap.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



From what I can tell, it doesn't look like the sealant on the underbody and in the wheelwell is compromised, but I'm going to take tikibus' advice and hose it down with water and press the sealant with a screwdriver to see if any water squishes out.

In the meantime, I was wondering if it was ok to take an angle grinder and just yank all the old seam sealer out, make sure there isn't any rust, and seal it back up?
It may be wishful thinking, but I don't think the rust is coming from the inside; it doesn't appear that way, anyway. Last time I had the fridge and a few other things out, the fiberglass wasn't stained red and everything looked normal.

I have no experience with dealing with rust, or metal restoration, welding, whatever, so I'm hoping this isn't too hard for me to deal with.
Thanks guys.


PS. Sorry for the crappy, fuzzy pictures, this camera is giving me problems...
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the way I found to permanently stop the seam rust issue.

Mask off the seams---right to either edge.
Get ahold of a spot sand blaster with a convex tip on it.

Run the sandblaster right down the seam sealer.
It'll remove all of the rust/ old sealer clean and comlete with no damage to either side of the seams.

Now , go to any Auto Body supply store-- purchase some 3-M body panel adhesive.

Your gonna need the gun with it too.

Re-mask the seams tight, and run a bead of the body panel adhesive down each seam.

Let it cure overnight, & pull the tape.

The body panel adhesive is bullet proof, displaces moisture, and your all done but the refinishing of the seams.

Mask them again and either spray the paint on , or run a brush with the right color on it.
Spraying the paint on will give you a factory , original look.

This seam repair approach will outlast the Van.

Grinding the old seam sealer / rust out is too aggresive, and will more than likely damage more than your repairing.

The spot sand blasting will get it all in 1/4 of the time.
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mtac
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

terry
sounds like good info and just what i need
can you reference a spot sand blaster for me
can it be rented?
also we have no auto body stores where i live
can the 3-m panel adhesive be mail ordered?
and what type of gun is required?
thanks
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<can you reference a spot sand blaster for me>>

I got mine with a sand recycler ,and 3 tips, round, concave & convex from Snap On.

<<can it be rented?>>
I'm not sure where you would rent one--
I guess pick up a phone book, and start calling some local rental outfits would be as good as any place to start .

<<also we have no auto body stores where i live
can the 3-m panel adhesive be mail ordered?>>

John Olsen
Terrance Supply
630 530 1000

<<and what type of gun is required?>>

The 3-M adhesive aplication gun.

You might ask John about the spot sand blaster too.

Tell him Terry told you to call him--he'll know what you need.
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bridgetroll13
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can also try these guys. www.eastwoodco.com

Erik D.
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blackglasspirate
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, thanks Terry for that info, it's just what I needed. I'll start looking for the stuff I need and try to get on this before I leave Friday.
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blackglasspirate
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I've found everything I need:

SandBlaster -
http://www.amazon.com/Spot-Shot-Air-Sand-Blaster/dp/B000I8W7XW

3M Panel adhesive -
http://www.autobodytoolmart.com/pc-11230-594-4133-3m-automix-panel-bonding-adhesive-08115.aspx

3M application gun -
http://www.technologylk.com/product_view.aspx?&source_ID=froogle&product_ID=793



I'll probably hold off on buying it though; I leave this Friday and won't be back until mid August. I guess it'll have to wait.
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tclark
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Terry Kay wrote:


Re-mask the seams tight, and run a bead of the body panel adhesive down each seam.
.

hmm TK last time you then suggested
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=215705&highlight=coat+zinc+chromate
I then layed a coat of zinc chromate, seif etching primer on the bonded area's.
Let it sit overnight & scuff it with 180.

Over the top of than I used Dupont Uro Prime with a flex agent in it.
It acts as a plastic bag primer sealer over the repaired area's.

The benifit of using this primer sealer is that it isn't a talic based product
It's urethane.
It won't suck up any moistue, it's flexable, and chip resistant.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your 100% correct.
I gave an abreviated version of the absolute correct way of getting the job done.
How many guys would actually seek out Vari Prime, alllow it to it 12 hours, scuff that down, seam seal the area with body panel adhesive, wait another 8 --10 hours for that to cure, and then go looking for the $89.00 a quart Uro Prime that sets up overnight?

Not too many.

Besides the poster mentioned he was in a hurry anyway--was leaving this coming Friday--no time.
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Rhinoculips
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:19 pm    Post subject: More extensive seam rust problem Reply with quote

Terry Kay

This technique of yours using a sandblaster sounds like a great idea. My seam rust problem seems to be deeper into the joint. Can a sandblaster reach deeper? It seems that the seam on the inside of the wheel well is letting water in as well as from the outside. I don't think the rust is super extensive, but it is growing faster and faster. I want this problem solved before the whole panel needs to be replaced. What are your thoughts of deeper seam repair?
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Other than doing complete panel removal surgery there is no Golden Goose here to be assured that your going to get super deep into that seam.
With the concave tip attachment it'll blow the abrasive pretty deep into that seam.
If you want to be almost positive of sealing the back side, blow a good heavy coat of bedliner into the wheel wells, and on the back side of the seams.

Between the 3-M body panel adhesive displacing any moisture forever, the bed liner if you get enough of it behind the seam will slow the reoccuring rust way down.
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madspaniard
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 5:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

resucitating this thread

queston, what is the advantage of using 3M body panel adhesive over a traditional 3M seam sealer? my concern is body panels flex as the van moves and I guess a seam sealer is designed to flex with the panels so no cracking develops, does the body panel adhesive have the same properties?

Bottom line, why body panel adhesive instead of seam sealer?
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Volksbulli
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

why not use 3M WindoWeld to seal the seams? it is a black urethane adhesive that is used for Glue in windows and windshields and the stuff is very tough.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<<<queston, what is the advantage of using 3M body panel adhesive over a traditional 3M seam sealer?>>

The seam sealer will crack, the body panel adhesive won't---
Besides the body panel adhesive dispaces moisture, the seam sealer absorbs it.


<< my concern is body panels flex as the van moves and I guess a seam sealer is designed to flex with the panels so no cracking develops, does the body panel adhesive have the same properties? >>

Does a the roof, back panel , front cowels of a Mack Truck flex & move in an off road job?
Absolutley.
Does the body panel adhesive crack & fail when the truck body is flexing & twisting?

Nope.

It's as good as a weld.

I parked my body panel mig welder 25 years ago,and been using the body panel adhesive ever since.

Do Corvettes flex?
They are glued together as most all vehicles are today.

The corners are spot welded.
The rest of the body work is glued, not seam sealed.

Thats the bottom line in automotive construction techniques in the new millenium.
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Crankey
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 10:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hey Terry, I see you don't mention priming the bare blasted metal seam before the panel glue. I'm not a body man but it seems (heh) to me you'd want to seal the bare metal in primer and then seal the seam with the the panel goo ?
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't mention priming the sandblasted or ground bare metal, because the body panel adhesive sticks to roughed up metal--not primer.

I also explained it displaces water in a prior message.

There is a Mack at work that got jack knifed, and laid on it's side 20 years ago, and the two front cowels, roof panel, and rear back panel were glued on.
NO primer in any of the seams.
I'm happy to report --no rusted seams --yet---

And the truck is out in the weather 24/7/365

You be the judge.

If you have any questions on the 3-M body panel adhesive's performance, take a ride to any body shop supply and read the poop sheet on the product.

You'll be happy you did.
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Last edited by Terry Kay on Wed May 06, 2009 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Crankey
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds impressive. I like your process.
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Terry Kay
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PostPosted: Wed May 06, 2009 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another idea for the slowing down of surface rust in the seams when you first see it---

My first Vanagon was an 85 GL, and it was abused.
I used it for work, and noticed seam surface rust starting durring the first winter I had it.

I had an idea, if I could prevent the winter's road garbage from getting to the seams--it may retard the rusting.

I puled it into the shop, and sprayed down all of the seams with panel wax.

I simply wiped off the excess on either side of the seams, and that was it.
4 years later,the wax was still in the seams, and the surface rust was pretty much a dead issue.
It got no worse.

I figured I prevented any more road salt from getting there, and the wax obviously smothered the air & water from the area.

It's not a permanent fix--the seams magicly got no better, but it didn't rust one more inch while I had the Van.

It's almost invisable, and worked very well for the amount of miniscule labor it took to apply.

Another idea to slow the demise of the Vanagons body seam area's without major surgery.
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Honuak
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:44 am    Post subject: Re-seal all the seams? Reply with quote

I have my westy down to metal. I'm prepping for a re-paint. There is minnimal but usual rust including some of the seams. I have the rusted seams excavated but have stalled out because I don't know if I should clean the old bondo out of all the seams, even the ones that look good. My van has spend most of its life in a garage in a no-salt state. But here in AK the winters can be rough, I think the state uses salt in places. So riddle me...should I re-do seams that seem fine?
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Crankey
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Terry, you have a product/brand name on this "panel wax" ?
thanks
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