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davis911s
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2005
Posts: 976
Location: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
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 Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject: Rear shoulder belts-Pics of real conversions |
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Yes I have searched this topic many times.
I will need shoulder belts in my 73 westy in a few years, as my kids will grow out of the car seats they now use. I am looking for pictures of real conversions that people have done.
In this picture by NIGEL it shows the VW cover.
I am just wondering how this is mounted. I know there is a hole in my westy under the window in that area, but is it also attached to the floor? Otherwise I am sure the mount would swivel.
_________________
"I choose to use CAA on old cars with character...instead of car payments on a new car  "
1973 Westfalia, Camper Special with 75 FI. Automatic 003 . Non-pop top
1977 Porsche 911S Targa, 2.7 L with 5spd
1992 Passat G60 Syncro Wagon (SOLD)
1975 Westfalia (SOLD)
1979 Westfalia (SOLD) |
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Orangeena
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Berkshire - UK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:48 am Post subject: |
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Hey,
I had a similar problem to you but with the added complication of a converted panel van, so no ready-made mounting points.
I got some advice from a garage (who shall remain nameless) on my options. One was to weld floor to ceiling bars in and fit the centrifugal units to those. This was probably the safest option, but neither pretty or practical.
Instead we settled on drilling new holes in the correct places and then fitting these Just Kampers centrifugal units. They come with a backing plate that we fitted behind the holes in the gulley for the slidind door. There was a bit of 'fettling' to stop the door fouling.
Now the bad news. Because these units are attached by a single bolt, it is impossible to tighten them enough to stop them turning slightly when heaved on. If the ones in Nigels photo are not braced elsewhere, then I suspect they would move as you tugged on the belt to put it on.
Also my solution is only really any use for kids (which is convenient as that is who sits in these seats). However it is better than the ancient, badly fitting lap belts that I replaced.
In the UK we have to boost kids under a certain height by law, as an adult belt will decapitate a small kid. My belts are almost 'kid sized' so I think they are OK.
Anyway, this setup has passed the UK MOT exam a couple of times now. When the kids grow up I may have to reconsider.
I expect a bit of flaming, but be gentle please.
Hope this helps
Max
_________________
1973 Bay in L20B
- Originaly a panel van
- Partial Westy Interior
- Viking Spacemaker roof
- Slider of a donor bus
- Doors imported from Australia
- 22nd Owner ! |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 3237
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:32 am Post subject: Re: Rear shoulder belts-Pics of real conversions |
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| davis911s wrote: |
Yes I have searched this topic many times.
I will need shoulder belts in my 73 westy in a few years, as my kids will grow out of the car seats they now use. I am looking for pictures of real conversions that people have done.
In this picture by NIGEL it shows the VW cover.
I am just wondering how this is mounted. I know there is a hole in my westy under the window in that area, but is it also attached to the floor? Otherwise I am sure the mount would swivel. |
see this diagram:
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
https://vwt2oc.co.uk |
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davis911s
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2005
Posts: 976
Location: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2008 10:24 am Post subject: |
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Awesome thanks AGAIN Nigel
_________________
"I choose to use CAA on old cars with character...instead of car payments on a new car "
1973 Westfalia, Camper Special with 75 FI. Automatic 003 . Non-pop top
1977 Porsche 911S Targa, 2.7 L with 5spd
1992 Passat G60 Syncro Wagon (SOLD)
1975 Westfalia (SOLD)
1979 Westfalia (SOLD) |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 3237
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 6:54 am Post subject: Rear shoulder belts-Pics of real conversions |
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| Orangeena wrote: |
Hey,
I had a similar problem to you but with the added complication of a converted panel van, so no ready-made mounting points.
I got some advice from a garage (who shall remain nameless) on my options. One was to weld floor to ceiling bars in and fit the centrifugal units to those. This was probably the safest option, but neither pretty or practical.
Instead we settled on drilling new holes in the correct places and then fitting these Just Kampers centrifugal units. They come with a backing plate that we fitted behind the holes in the gulley for the sliding door. There was a bit of 'fettling' to stop the door fouling.
Now the bad news. Because these units are attached by a single bolt, it is impossible to tighten them enough to stop them turning slightly when heaved on. If the ones in Nigels photo are not braced elsewhere, then I suspect they would move as you tugged on the belt to put it on.
Also my solution is only really any use for kids (which is convenient as that is who sits in these seats). However it is better than the ancient, badly fitting lap belts that I replaced.
In the UK we have to boost kids under a certain height by law, as an adult belt will decapitate a small kid. My belts are almost 'kid sized' so I think they are OK.
Anyway, this setup has passed the UK MOT exam a couple of times now. When the kids grow up I may have to reconsider.
I expect a bit of flaming, but be gentle please.
Hope this helps
Max |
I think you mean inertia-reel units rather than centrifugal. Centrifugal effects, make no contribution to the functioning of inertia-reel seat belts.
The MOT examination, only takes account of the security of the mountings, the condition of the seat-belt webbing and the smooth operation of the inertia reel.
It is not intended as a check on the legality of their use for children of any given age, weight or size, nor the probable efficacy of the seat belt system, in safely restraining people in their seat, without submarining or the shoulder strap slipping off the shoulder.
Other than the very rudimentary checks performed during the MOT inspection, it is entirely your responsibility, to ensure the fitness for purpose, of your seat belt system installation and any supplementary booster cushions, child seats or baby seats, you might be obliged to use.
When time permits, I shall try to supplement my article in this forum, with appropriate information and information sources, pertaining to the safe restraint of children.
1968~79 VW Type 2, seatbelts, head restraints & airbags
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=262433&highlight=seat+belts
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
https://vwt2oc.co.uk |
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Orangeena
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Berkshire - UK
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Nigel,
I did indeed mean inertia-reel and not centrifugal. Thanks for the correction.
I have browsed (not fully digested) your great post on seatbelts. Do you think it would be possible to fabricate a bracket to raise the seatbelt mount as in your pictures?
Thanks
Max
_________________
1973 Bay in L20B
- Originaly a panel van
- Partial Westy Interior
- Viking Spacemaker roof
- Slider of a donor bus
- Doors imported from Australia
- 22nd Owner ! |
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melville
Samba Member
Joined: August 09, 2006
Posts: 1293
Location: Just Outside the Redwood Curtain
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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It's not a conversion, just an installation. The anchor points are there already, about halfway back on the rear window. We used fixed belts from a Bus front seat. We did just one per Bus because of the age difference in our boys and the seats they required at any time. When the big boy needed a booster that used the vehicle lap/shoulder belt, the small boy's seat could be secured with a lap belt. The big boy outgrew boosters about the time the small boy needed one to work with the vehicle lap/shoulder belt. There are also issues with the anchor being inside the cabinet on the Westy.
The anchor is a bit low, but no lower than, say, a typical convertible, and we are belting kids in place after all. I would trust the factory anchor more than any homemade upward extension that didn't tie in to the roof rails. Look at an old Volvo 240 wagon for an idea in this area.
The Kombi is also equipped with anchors on the 'C' pillar (for middle seat passengers), and they are a bit higher than the rear anchors. You may or may not have them on your 73, as 73s started out as sunroof Kombis rather than the dedicated Westy body used in 74 and later. Something to think about if you are using a middle seat.
I won't be home with enough daylight to post a pic until the weekend, so, sorry, no pics.
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2000 M Roadster
79 R100RS
78 R100/7
75 R75/6
65 Standard Micro
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germansupplyscott
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Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7283
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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i designed and built a seat belt anchor for a customer. it is patterned after the rear belt anchors in a volvo 240 wagon. the mount uses the threaded boss in the body below the window and a hole is drilled above the window. the belt is attached to a hook suspended on the anchor mast, which is 1/2" steel round bar. these are not the greatest photos, but they're all i have at the moment.
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SL |
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hiwaycallin
Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 362
Location: Salmon Arm, BC
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| germansupplyscott wrote: |
i designed and built a seat belt anchor for a customer. it is patterned after the rear belt anchors in a volvo 240 wagon. the mount uses the threaded boss in the body below the window and a hole is drilled above the window. the belt is attached to a hook suspended on the anchor mast, which is 1/2" steel round bar.
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That looks pretty slick Scott. What did you do on the other side where the closet is? |
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germansupplyscott
Samba Member
Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7283
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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| hiwaycallin wrote: |
| That looks pretty slick Scott. What did you do on the other side where the closet is? |
nothing.
it's a whole 'nuther issue to solve, getting the belt through the cabinet. gowesty makes a kit for this already, but their kit does nothing to get the mount point high like it needs to be.
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SL |
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hiwaycallin
Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2008
Posts: 362
Location: Salmon Arm, BC
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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| germansupplyscott wrote: |
| hiwaycallin wrote: |
| That looks pretty slick Scott. What did you do on the other side where the closet is? |
nothing.
it's a whole 'nuther issue to solve, getting the belt through the cabinet. gowesty makes a kit for this already, but their kit does nothing to get the mount point high like it needs to be. |
Yeah, that's what I was thinking too when I had a look at their kit online. Seems less than ideal. |
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enjoispammy8
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 1984
Location: Long Beach, CA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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according to ratwell, belts from 90's jettas will fit buses perfectly. im getting a full set to install in the front and in the back on my westy. ill make my own thread when i do it but i was wondering if anyone has done this yet? or thought about it instead of getting the kits from jk?
_________________
1969 Westy, 1690cc. montana red and cloud white.
1969 Standard Beetle [sold]
Watch My Movies: https://www.youtube.com/user/taylorlikesacdc
| Desertbusman wrote: |
| Is there a message here? Enjoy Spammy Ate |
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davis911s
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2005
Posts: 976
Location: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2008 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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Scott
Are you thinking of making another set of these- or possibly manufacturing them? If so what cost? Also what type os seat belts were used.
Thanks
_________________
"I choose to use CAA on old cars with character...instead of car payments on a new car "
1973 Westfalia, Camper Special with 75 FI. Automatic 003 . Non-pop top
1977 Porsche 911S Targa, 2.7 L with 5spd
1992 Passat G60 Syncro Wagon (SOLD)
1975 Westfalia (SOLD)
1979 Westfalia (SOLD) |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 3237
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: Rear shoulder belts-Pics of real conversions |
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| germansupplyscott wrote: |
I designed and built a seat belt anchor for a customer. It is patterned after the rear belt anchors in a Volvo 240 wagon. The mount uses the threaded boss in the body below the window and a hole is drilled above the window. The belt is attached to a hook suspended on the anchor mast, which is 1/2" steel round bar. These are not the greatest photos, but they're all i have at the moment.
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I had similar thoughts, when I saw a Volvo 245 estate car (i.e. station wagon, in North American parlance) in my local car breaker's yard, nearly two decades ago, but I could not think of a neat & structurally strong way, to fasten the top of the vertical bars above the left-hand and right-hand, rear-most side windows, of my family's British specification, 1973 VW 1600 Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, which has a full-width, combination, rock & roll rear bench seat cum double bed.
So Scott, how did you secure the top of the vertical bar, after drilling the hole in the box-section, above the window. Did you use some sort of heavy-duty, pre-threaded, cavity-wall, anchor-bolt of some description?
| Orangeena wrote: |
Nigel,
I did indeed mean inertia-reel and not centrifugal. Thanks for the correction.
I have browsed (not fully digested) your great post on seatbelts. Do you think it would be possible to fabricate a bracket to raise the seatbelt mount as in your pictures?
Thanks
Max |
I believe it would be possible to fabricate such a seat-belt mounting bracket, which I hope to do some day, if I cannot obtain some genuine, second-hand VW items from Sweden.
A system, akin to that of the Volvo 245 estate car, would probably be better, if it can be done properly!?!
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
https://vwt2oc.co.uk |
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dan macmillan
Samba Member
Joined: October 19, 2003
Posts: 3110
Location: Northern Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:16 am Post subject: |
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| germansupplyscott wrote: |
i designed and built a seat belt anchor for a customer. it is patterned after the rear belt anchors in a volvo 240 wagon. the mount uses the threaded boss in the body below the window and a hole is drilled above the window. the belt is attached to a hook suspended on the anchor mast, which is 1/2" steel round bar. these are not the greatest photos, but they're all i have at the moment.
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Looks nice but what is it made of and how well is it secured. If it is ordinary 1/2 steel bar then someone may get seriousy injured when it folds and gets ripped out of the window frame. A 50 pound child can easily apply 400 pounds of force in a head on collision. Do you think it would hold up to that much force suddenly applied to it. The factory diagram that was posted is the way to go. The forces of a collision are directed forward and downward into the quarter pannel area which is much stronger.
We have similar child booster laws in Ontario. We also have a law that does not require us to install or change seat belt designs if the vehicle was not equipped. Front lap belts came in in 1972 and rear laps in 1989. I have had discussions with my member of paliament on this topic. As we are not engineers we cannot say if our good intentions will save a life, they may do the opposite. Final decision was that it is better to secure your child as the factory intended not as the government states. Also keep in mind that seatbelts that are over 10 years old are considered to be out of their useful service life due to UV effects on the material.
_________________
Licensed Automotive Service Technician
Licensed Truck and Coach Technician
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66 Modified Manx,68 Kyote,74 Thing,74 Beetle, 76 Transporter,75 self made Double Cab,65 Meyers Manx,78Westy,68 Ghia, 79 Bradley GT2
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germansupplyscott
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Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7283
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| dan macmillan wrote: |
| Looks nice but what is it made of and how well is it secured. |
it's strong dan. i'm an industrial designer by training and i have some university engineering because of that. yes there is a lot of force on this mast in the event of a collision.
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SL |
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Orangeena
Samba Member
Joined: February 06, 2008
Posts: 133
Location: Berkshire - UK
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| Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:33 am Post subject: |
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Dan
| Quote: |
| Final decision was that it is better to secure your child as the factory intended not as the government states. |
As I have a panel van conversion, the government probably did not intend anyone to travel in th back.
I think some form of restraint is probably better than none, at least that is my opinion.
Max
_________________
1973 Bay in L20B
- Originaly a panel van
- Partial Westy Interior
- Viking Spacemaker roof
- Slider of a donor bus
- Doors imported from Australia
- 22nd Owner ! |
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Toaster on Wheels
Samba Member
Joined: June 07, 2006
Posts: 205
Location: Ottawa, Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: |
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Hey Scott, anyway that could be modified to fit in the back of a seven seater?
_________________
'75 Bus
"in the abundance of water, the fool is thirsty."
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mnskmobi
Samba Member
Joined: February 28, 2005
Posts: 536
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:12 pm Post subject: |
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| enjoispammy8 wrote: |
| according to ratwell, belts from 90's jettas will fit buses perfectly. im getting a full set to install in the front and in the back on my westy. ill make my own thread when i do it but i was wondering if anyone has done this yet? or thought about it instead of getting the kits from jk? |
If I was going to the trouble of installing new seat belts I wouldn't install second hand ones as they may be damaged through wear and tear, sunlight or from the vehicle being in an accident.  |
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enjoispammy8
Samba Member
Joined: December 26, 2007
Posts: 1984
Location: Long Beach, CA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 12, 2008 7:49 pm Post subject: |
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| mnskmobi wrote: |
| enjoispammy8 wrote: |
| according to ratwell, belts from 90's jettas will fit buses perfectly. im getting a full set to install in the front and in the back on my westy. ill make my own thread when i do it but i was wondering if anyone has done this yet? or thought about it instead of getting the kits from jk? |
If I was going to the trouble of installing new seat belts I wouldn't install second hand ones as they may be damaged through wear and tear, sunlight or from the vehicle being in an accident. |
well a set of 5 retractables for just over $100 is a better deal than 2 for the same price from wolfsburgwest, especially if your short on dough. and anything, even hand-me-downs are better than the ones that are in there now. 
_________________
1969 Westy, 1690cc. montana red and cloud white.
1969 Standard Beetle [sold]
Watch My Movies: https://www.youtube.com/user/taylorlikesacdc
| Desertbusman wrote: |
| Is there a message here? Enjoy Spammy Ate |
| EZ Gruv wrote: |
| Way to fuck up some little kids riding in the car next to you. |
| hazetguy wrote: |
| you need to be doing better drugs. |
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