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volksmike
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2002
Posts: 64
Location: Macedonia SC
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 Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:28 pm Post subject: Narrowed Beam- Major understeer...??? |
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I have a 6" KCW beam uner my fastback and I have real scary understeer. The tires are 135's. I have the "no shock" bounce/stiffness and the bumpsteer from the weird angle of the tierods, this I expected. But the understeer is freeky. When I turn, the outside tire (in relation to the turn) scrubs.
Is this normal for the narrowed beam-small tire setup. Does the Akerman effect really make that big a difference. I plan on re-doing the beam to make room for shocks, and flipping the tierods to reduce the bumpsteer.
Any thoughts? |
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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go back to stock.
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 23034
Location: Northwest of Normal
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Narrowed Beam- Major understeer...??? |
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| volksmike wrote: |
I have a 6" KCW beam uner my fastback and I have real scary understeer. The tires are 135's. I have the "no shock" bounce/stiffness and the bumpsteer from the weird angle of the tierods, this I expected. But the understeer is freeky. When I turn, the outside tire (in relation to the turn) scrubs.
Is this normal for the narrowed beam-small tire setup. Does the Akerman effect really make that big a difference. I plan on re-doing the beam to make room for shocks, and flipping the tierods to reduce the bumpsteer.
Any thoughts? |
Either it's a characteristic of the narrowed radius, or the caster got seriously screwed up when the beam was installed. I haven't seen people complaining of this on other narrowed beams, so I'm thinking maybe you have another problem.
You can lower a stock T3 beam very easily.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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Ghoti
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2007
Posts: 760
Location: Rollin' in 541
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:03 am Post subject: Re: Narrowed Beam- Major understeer...??? |
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| Tram wrote: |
| volksmike wrote: |
I have a 6" KCW beam uner my fastback and I have real scary understeer. The tires are 135's. I have the "no shock" bounce/stiffness and the bumpsteer from the weird angle of the tierods, this I expected. But the understeer is freeky. When I turn, the outside tire (in relation to the turn) scrubs.
Is this normal for the narrowed beam-small tire setup. Does the Akerman effect really make that big a difference. I plan on re-doing the beam to make room for shocks, and flipping the tierods to reduce the bumpsteer.
Any thoughts? |
Either it's a characteristic of the narrowed radius, or the caster got seriously screwed up when the beam was installed. I haven't seen people complaining of this on other narrowed beams, so I'm thinking maybe you have another problem.
You can lower a stock T3 beam very easily. |
WHAT???  The VW purist of purists... 
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Slowlow 
Samba Member
Joined: March 17, 2004
Posts: 4121
Location: Northeast Tennessee
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 12:22 am Post subject: |
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You would most likely get better responce in a beetle forum, where people have more experience with narrowed beams.
Sounds like some sort of alignment issue to me.... a 6" beam shouldnt have that extreme of an Akerman angle.
Flipped tie-rods are a must to cancel out the bumpsteer.
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 23034
Location: Northwest of Normal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:18 am Post subject: Re: Narrowed Beam- Major understeer...??? |
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| Ghoti wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
| volksmike wrote: |
I have a 6" KCW beam uner my fastback and I have real scary understeer. The tires are 135's. I have the "no shock" bounce/stiffness and the bumpsteer from the weird angle of the tierods, this I expected. But the understeer is freeky. When I turn, the outside tire (in relation to the turn) scrubs.
Is this normal for the narrowed beam-small tire setup. Does the Akerman effect really make that big a difference. I plan on re-doing the beam to make room for shocks, and flipping the tierods to reduce the bumpsteer.
Any thoughts? |
Either it's a characteristic of the narrowed radius, or the caster got seriously screwed up when the beam was installed. I haven't seen people complaining of this on other narrowed beams, so I'm thinking maybe you have another problem.
You can lower a stock T3 beam very easily. |
WHAT??? The VW purist of purists... |
I didn't say I approve of it. I said that original T3 beams could be lowered easily- which means that they can be brought back up to stock height easily, too. 
Are we gonna make a T3 guy out of you, Ghoti?  See my sig line.
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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Those who can't? Subaru. |
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Ghoti
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2007
Posts: 760
Location: Rollin' in 541
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:38 am Post subject: |
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I dunno....really like my Bug.  I know you're not liking it about now.
I could add a T3 later! T will be needing a ride in a few years.
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volksmike
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2002
Posts: 64
Location: Macedonia SC
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: |
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Beam was in there when I got the car...
I'm trying to fix PO F-up.
The bottom of the frame head was cut away for ground clearence and so a stock beam won't go back in safely.
The way it was when I got it had the T1 beam held in place with the worn out rubber grommets and clamps from the stock set-up. The WHOLE beam flopped around on the frame head, I fixed that by welding the clamps to the beam and bolting the beam straight to the frame head. Aside from welding on a new frame head, I'm sort of stuck with the T1.
There are VERY few T-3's around here so there aren't parts cars... |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 23034
Location: Northwest of Normal
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| volksmike wrote: |
Beam was in there when I got the car...
I'm trying to fix PO F-up.
The bottom of the frame head was cut away for ground clearence and so a stock beam won't go back in safely.
The way it was when I got it had the T1 beam held in place with the worn out rubber grommets and clamps from the stock set-up. The WHOLE beam flopped around on the frame head, I fixed that by welding the clamps to the beam and bolting the beam straight to the frame head. Aside from welding on a new frame head, I'm sort of stuck with the T1.
There are VERY few T-3's around here so there aren't parts cars... |
I can fix you up with a good straight frame head if you need one. I was thinking "bent frame head" from the get- go. Sounds like whoever installed that beam wasn't exactly dainty about it.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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Those who can't? Subaru. |
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crede999
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2006
Posts: 197
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: |
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hi hope this helps heres some pics of my 6inch narrow beam ,it has drop spindels aswell , you maybe able to zoom in to see closer the set up i have , i did have rub issues til i fitted steering stops on th beam , i dont get understeer , and i have 125s on 4 inch wheels on the front, anyhow hope the pics help,
best regards
chris
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Russ Wolfe
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Joined: October 08, 2004
Posts: 25187
Location: Central Iowa
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 11:46 am Post subject: |
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And if you are closer to the mid-west, I have a good frame head.
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volksmike
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2002
Posts: 64
Location: Macedonia SC
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| Posted: Sat Jun 14, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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crede999--- Nice pan 
I will have to look at the alingement I guess. There must be something hokey going on there. It has dropped spindles as well, so it rubs on the doubler panel on the inner fenders and the fuel filler piping also.
thanks |
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blankmange
Type 3 Darksider
Joined: July 17, 2004
Posts: 11498
Location: Bloßer Stahl-preapocalyptic MidCoast
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:37 am Post subject: |
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| volksmike wrote: |
crede999--- Nice pan
I will have to look at the alingement I guess. There must be something hokey going on there. It has dropped spindles as well, so it rubs on the doubler panel on the inner fenders and the fuel filler piping also.
thanks |
I would be looking at doing what I could to reconstruct the entire front end if this was going on....
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póg mo thóin
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lowindO
Samba Member
Joined: May 05, 2005
Posts: 337
Location: pensa~cola
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| blankmange wrote: |
| volksmike wrote: |
crede999--- Nice pan
I will have to look at the alingement I guess. There must be something hokey going on there. It has dropped spindles as well, so it rubs on the doubler panel on the inner fenders and the fuel filler piping also.
thanks |
I would be looking at doing what I could to reconstruct the entire front end if this was going on.... |
I would bet that the rubbing on the double panel on the inner fenders combined with the angle of the tie rods is whats doing it. Also if your alignment isn't straight you will be all over the place.
I had to cut out that panel on the inner fenders for mine and flip the tie rods. Mine doesn't ride as good as it did with a lowered type 3 beam but it rides better than my old slammed beetle ever did.
Mine rubs only on bumps while turning on my fuel filler tho, what year do you have?
Is this the Nasty Fasty?
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JSMskater
Samba Grease Gorilla
Joined: February 01, 2006
Posts: 5362
Location: Murrieta California
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:35 pm Post subject: |
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| lowindO wrote: |
| blankmange wrote: |
| volksmike wrote: |
crede999--- Nice pan
I will have to look at the alingement I guess. There must be something hokey going on there. It has dropped spindles as well, so it rubs on the doubler panel on the inner fenders and the fuel filler piping also.
thanks |
I would be looking at doing what I could to reconstruct the entire front end if this was going on.... |
I would bet that the rubbing on the double panel on the inner fenders combined with the angle of the tie rods is whats doing it. Also if your alignment isn't straight you will be all over the place.
I had to cut out that panel on the inner fenders for mine and flip the tie rods. Mine doesn't ride as good as it did with a lowered type 3 beam but it rides better than my old slammed beetle ever did.
Mine rubs only on bumps while turning on my fuel filler tho, what year do you have?
Is this the Nasty Fasty? |
NOOOOOO the antichrist of t3's! Don't let it have resurfaced!
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Mr. Bubblehead
El Chupa Nibre
Joined: October 25, 2002
Posts: 2756
Location: 612 Wharf Avenue
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: Narrowed Beam- Major understeer...??? |
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| volksmike wrote: |
I have a 6" KCW beam uner my fastback and I have real scary understeer. The tires are 135's. I have the "no shock" bounce/stiffness and the bumpsteer from the weird angle of the tierods, this I expected. But the understeer is freeky. When I turn, the outside tire (in relation to the turn) scrubs.
Is this normal for the narrowed beam-small tire setup. Does the Akerman effect really make that big a difference. I plan on re-doing the beam to make room for shocks, and flipping the tierods to reduce the bumpsteer.
Any thoughts? |
Assuming the alignment (camber angle and toe-in) is correct, an educated guess tells me the caster angle is probably wrong. With the small footprint of the tread width of 135 tires, you shouldn't notice the Akerman Effect, regardless of the narrow front track width. You could try shimming the lower beam tube and see if that helps. A simple geometry correction may greatly improve the vehicle's handling. Also, in regard to bump steer, no shocks on the front has way more effect than incorrect tie rod angle. While modern rack-and-pinion steering systems require a very precise tie-rod angle to reduce bump steer, the roller type steering that these VWs use is very forgiving. If you do decide that you need to flip the tie rods, flip the outers only (providing the tie rod ends have enough articulation, which they should, given that the vehicle is lowered).
BTW, it's been years since I've heard an "Akerman Effect" reference. Good job!
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VWporscheGT3
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Joined: September 01, 2006
Posts: 2170
Location: Gardnerville, NV
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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i had this problem when i first got my fastback and had not a clue about handling characteristics and lowering.... i had 135's up front on rivies... lowering it didnt help it , correcting toe in didnt help it , adding weight to the front helped slightly but only made hard corners scary if i went in too fast. after new shocks (didnt help) and raising the front to a sane lowered level (didnt help either) i changed my tires . which were nankook 135 r-15's and changed them to stock 165 R15's again on riviera's and 1 click lowered in the front , all the understeer went away with just a little more meat touching the pavement. i lowered it again and the handling got even better , when i added stiffer shocks even better... but it was the 135's... it you corner hard like i do , and corner a little hot... your gonna want some more meat touching the ground... you have a type1 beam in your car but i would almost bet five bucks that its a lack of contact with the road... there are other tire options for more meat on the pavement just ask or look around. hope this made ANY sense...
-Trevor
69 Fasty
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aveyinc
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 737
Location: Northern Arizona
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| JSMskater wrote: |
| lowindO wrote: |
| blankmange wrote: |
| volksmike wrote: |
crede999--- Nice pan
I will have to look at the alingement I guess. There must be something hokey going on there. It has dropped spindles as well, so it rubs on the doubler panel on the inner fenders and the fuel filler piping also.
thanks |
I would be looking at doing what I could to reconstruct the entire front end if this was going on.... |
I would bet that the rubbing on the double panel on the inner fenders combined with the angle of the tie rods is whats doing it. Also if your alignment isn't straight you will be all over the place.
I had to cut out that panel on the inner fenders for mine and flip the tie rods. Mine doesn't ride as good as it did with a lowered type 3 beam but it rides better than my old slammed beetle ever did.
Mine rubs only on bumps while turning on my fuel filler tho, what year do you have?
Is this the Nasty Fasty? |
NOOOOOO the antichrist of t3's! Don't let it have resurfaced! |
The Nasty is dead.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2...p;start=40
Check grimace007 's sig line too.
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RennyRB
Samba Textbook Gangsta
Joined: August 10, 2006
Posts: 979
Location: Torrance
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| Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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I haven't got too much driving time in it yet, but my Square handles pretty well slammed on 3 notches in front and 2 in rear, on 155/60 up front and 195/60 in back. Just a suggestion for those running stock beams and wheels with good offset. If I were to do more serious driving I'd probably upgrade to 175/55-205/65 and maybe add a sway bar and camber compensator?
The point is, with my pretty skinny front tires, I don't have any grip or understeer problems, in fact my bug with 165s has far less grip, but thats another suspension design entirely.
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lowindO
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Joined: May 05, 2005
Posts: 337
Location: pensa~cola
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| Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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i am very happy with my 145/65s slightly wider and slightly lower profile than 135s.
i however don't recommend the 165/45s except maybe if your trying to squeeze every millimeter out of a slammed job and save your fenders. stock width and very low profile.
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