Mild suspension upgrades for 68?

[panjandrum]

(edited for brevity, believe it or not!)

Hello again. I'm in the process of "modernizing" my completely stock '68 bug slightly. I wish to reduce body-roll and wandering during side-winds. Important points for me include drivability, simplicity, and retaining (except possibly somewhat wider rubber in the future) the stock appearance of the car (no lowering etc), and cost of course.

The only suspension modifications I have is a set limiter-straps to prevent wheel-tuck and a set of weak coil-over shocks in the rear which I recently installed to compensate for the sagging old rear torsion bars (which I didn't feel qualified to adjust myself and which I can't find anyone locally with the experience to adjust properly). Also, when pushed hard this car was understeering badly (on acceleration). This understeer was more pronounced than I expected, which I attributed to the softening of the rear suspension. Thus getting the rear back to stock stiffness seemed desirable. Initial tests seem to indicate that adding these has indeed reduced the on-throttle understeer somewhat. This bug does have what appears to be a front sway-bar. I don't know what else it could possibly be, but it certainly isn't very effective.

I'm thinking of going with a (bigger?) front and adding a rear sway-bar. I understand suspension setup at a relatively basic level, so I know that stiffening one end of the car more than the other can dramatically alter the balance of the car. My (admittedly crude) understanding is that the stiffer end of the car tends to slide before the softer end. I've been told several times that a front sway-bar will "be enough", but my understanding is that this will decrease body-roll (good) but also increase understeer (bad). Likewise a rear-only sway-bar configuration would (possibly dangerously) increase oversteer. Is this correct?

I've also heard that the "camber compensator" available from aircooled.net for the rear acts as a sway bar. I've also heard exactly the opposite, that it only prevents wheel-tuck and doesn't act as a sway bar at all. Can anyone tell me definitively one way or the other?

In general, what advice do you have for someone who just wants a flatter and more responsive ride buy who is unwilling to do lowering etc.? Has a particular sway-bar setup been especially well received by a wide variety of drivers? I don't mind a slightly stiffer ride, but overall I would prefer to limit body roll while maintaining a comfortable ride.

Thanks!

[mat3833]

well, i would start by buying a good set of coil-over shocks. probobly eibach or koni. see how you like that and then lower the car a bit. lowering the car will have a huge impact on its Auto-X ability. im guessint you have a swing-axle car so the camber compensator is a must. i have heard of people using both a sway bar and the camber compensator but i have no idea how that would work out. start with lowering the car an inch in the back and 2 in the front. this should cut down on the understeer as the car will have less rear-weight transfer. this coupled with better shocks all around will drasticly improve the handeling of the car. also if you add a set of caster shims to the front of the car you will have a more stable ride at higher speed. camber and toe help can be received through PM.

Matt
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[panjandrum]

[The Man of All Men]

Why do you have a set of limiter straps on a stock bug? Are you going to jump the dam thing

[panjandrum]

[Teeroy]

Leave the straps, even with a compensator! If you Autocross with a SCCA club, Swing Axle cars are required to have a positive anti tuck devise.
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[nextgen]

Whoa, 68, that should be a IRS right? Well I did mine and no strap. KYB GAS ADJUST SHOCK on all 4. 196 Tires on all 4. Front and rear anti sway bars. Dropped front spindles. When you do the spindles you can put front discs on them. The car goes around turns like it is on rails.


Vast improvement over stock. The car handles great.
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[Teeroy]

68 last year SA in the states, unless it's an autostick
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[panjandrum]

Yes, 68 is the last year for the swing axle in the US (except for the autostick which had the "IRS"). Thus, the apparent need for third-party equipment to prevent wheel tuck.

As previously stated, I'm not looking for any kind of wild upgrades, I'm really just looking for advice on achieving a more "modern" vehicle ride: Less body roll, less wandering in sidewinds, etc. (We get a lot of strong gusting sidewinds off lake Michigan here in the West Michigan area.) I definitely won't be lowering it. This will remain a 3-season daily driver which I will occasionally run in amateur autocross events. I'm not a highly competitive guy, I'm just there to have fun, not to win, so I'm not looking to build a "track day car".

[nextgen]

Hi,
well, the sway bars and the tires and the shocks. That's it. Now as for a modern ride, forget about it. Even lowered here in NY cross winds kill me. Both hands on the wheel. The car is high, weighs less then 2000 lbs, has a short wheel base and front torsion bars. When I drive my car I just say, well this is how it was to drive a bug. Today we had rain storms. With the flat windshield and slow wipiers even on high, with almost no defogger we are not talking modern in any way. But that is way we drive them.
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[neil68]

[panjandrum]

[quote="neil68"]

[Teeroy]

KYB GR2's are nice, and won't raise the ride height like the KYB Gas Adjust will. Not too spendy either
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[dog_jr911]

i have kyb gr2s. nice.


for a handling upgrade ( for freeway and higher speed driving, to avoid erratic swerving caused by wind) add caster shims.

a stock VW will benefit from these caster shims as well.

lowered bugs NEED them.
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[nextgen]

I didn't know the GR2's didn't raise the bug. My car has dropped front spindles and I love the Gas a Just shocks but thought it was my imagination that the car looked higher. Wow only if I know.

What is the difference in height, between the GR2 and the GAJ's any one know?
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[brent bousman]

panjandrum,

I'm not sure if anyone addressed your strap adjustment above but you can floor jack the car from the middle and adjust the straps to limit the tires before they get a positive camber stance. If you don't like the straps you can get some flop stops to limit the spring plates.

I'm not a big fan of the camber compensator. You already have straps so no reason to bother with a camber compensator as it is not going to function as a sway bar.

Some of this has been covered above. This is what you need to make a swing axel street car handle with out being harsh and put a smile on your face after experiencing the new suspension attitude:
1) Wider Tires
2) Camber limiter (straps or flop stops)
3) GR2 shocks
4) Front and Rear sway bars (adjustable if you have the $$)
5) Alignment


BTW- If the oil light starts to glow on the corners you will have to buy a thin sump to keep your oil pick up wet and your motor happy. This is highly recommended before you do the ocassional autocross as you might not see the oil light during your runs and then the dreaded rod knock will kick you hard in the wallet.

Have fun!

[panjandrum]

Thanks guys. I'm getting usable advice here. I have the KYB GR2's on the rear, slightly modified (removed protective housing on top portion) to allow me to install a set of custom coils over them. Did the mod myself and loving it. This has already leveled the car during turns quite a bit and done wonders reducing the understeer.

I've ordered a set for the front and we'll see where that gets me.

As for the sway-bars...

Here is a picture of what I'm assuming is the current front sway-bar. At least, if that isn't a sway bar I don't know what it is:

http://www.thatmacguy.com/random/bugfrontsuspension.jpg

Whatever it is, it isn't very effective.

So (brent), I'm really running the risk of sloshing oil around so badly that the oil pump can't pick it up? That is something I hadn't thought of, but I'm pretty sure I have occasionally noticed the oil light blink for just a second after hard cornering during daily driving (not that I would ever do sch a thing...), especially when the engine is hot. I'm relatively sure it's done that for the entire time I've owned it and I've never given it much thought. I'll pay close attention over the next few days.

My apologies for some of these basic questions. Believe it or not I've owned Bugs since the day I could legally drive, so, what about 24 years now, and used to play mechanic all the time. All the tune-ups, many types of repairs etc. But, eventually life got in the way and I stopped paying attention to cars in general and even started having my current Bug serviced professionally for anything and everything it needed. It is amazing how quickly "use it or lose it" took-hold and my brain threw away all those years of automotive knowledge.

[brent bousman]

Yeah that is a picture of one side of a stock sway bar. Pretty skinny but better than nothing. Here is a piture of a front and rear bar that someone on Samba is selling - not sure what brand it is. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=459231

If you have the $$ I like the whiteline adjustable bars you can get from Aircooled.net FRONT - http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=SSS0002&cartid=0731200725801389
REAR http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=SSS0005&cartid=0731200725801389


Long corners like entrance ramps to highways on a cloverleaf you can turn the oil light on steady for a few seconds using only wide sticky tires on your stocker. This oil pick up starvation is because most of your oil just went into the left valve cover and the oil pickup is waiting for the oil to drain back down the pushrod tubes. On a bone stock VW with normal driving you don't see this but just keep you eye out on long ramps and of course at your occasional autocross.

[GregZA]

I'd say; change the shocks out first, they look like they've been on there a good while.

Once you've got some good shocks on there you can reconsider your options.

[panjandrum]