Failed Catalytic Converter

[zerotofifty]

[Xevin]

[zerotofifty]

[kamzcab86]

[E1]

Great to hear Kamz, and Thanks!

As mentioned, even when our first van had injector issues, and ran like dung, we passed by a mile.

I suspect the same will be true with this van and the aftermarket cat — and it runs really well!
(except for when not running, greatest camping rig of all time…! When it’s parked)

Thanks.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[goubeaux]

As promised, I pulled the plugs for inspection, and am providing images.
This is a GW 2.2 Engine BTW

Also, I checked my notes and confirmed that a new O2 sensor, air filter, plugs, wires and tune up were done when the CAT was installed 7K miles ago.

I'm no expert, but it does not appear like a running rich situation based on the plugs, BUT the collective wisdom of the community will be appreciated !

[E1]

Curious what others think, but #2 looks a fair hair richer — unless a photo anomaly for being the only photo in darker shade.

Edit: I do suspect it’s richer, but of low concern in my opinion. I use the “standard” BP6 plugs so also curious if others have tried yours — and even if they’re absolutely the same temperature plugs as standard.

I’m extremely confident in thinking overall they’re far closer to ideal than they are towards problematic rich. At least, this time.

I always shoot my plugs in a line, and in brightest shade, so lighting can’t alter the overall read.

At anytime in the cat’s life, are you absolutely sure it was never fuel-stinking rich? To ruin a cat so quickly you’d notice it, even on the highway.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[fxr]

E1 - why would running rich make the catalyst framework break free from its attachments to the outer case, which apparently is the situation here? Just curious.
_________________
Jim Crowther
1984 1.9l EJ22 Westy Wolfsburg Edition
Vespa GTS 300

[DanHoug]

Running rich can make the catalyst run stupid hot and destroy structural integrity. Plugs look fine but an exhaust air leak can fool the O2 sensor into telling the ECU to pour the fuel on. Did you have an exhaust leak in the last 2 years? The degree of rust on the cat canister also says maybe it got rilly hot. Or you live in MN.
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[E1]

Thanks Jim and Dan... interesting to read a possible exhaust connection and that plugs could look normal.

We had water in the gas a couple weeks ago… smelled like it was barely burning gas when starting to stall and then trying desperately to even idle, cat exit temp went from normal 550-ish to 800.

If not for the “pesky” Sonoran sunlight I wondered if it was red-hot… probably was.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[DanHoug]

An engine miss causes a perfect storm for high cat temps…. Extra O2 from the combustion cycle that didn’t fire to give the oxidative molecules, unburnt fuel to throw on the fire, AND an O2 sensor sniffing the extra O2 from the misfire and telling the ECU to add more fuel!!
_________________
-dan
60% of what you find on the internet is wrong, including this post.

'87 Westy & '89 Westy both 2.1 4spd

Past projects can be found at--
www.thefixitworkshop.com

[Sodo]

Those plugs look lean to me.
i'd expect some chocolate after 7k miles.
#2 looks good.

What's the effect on the cat from lean mixture?
Lean mixture is usually "hot".
Agreed there's not much left to combust inside the cat.
_________________


'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb

[goubeaux]

Thanks for the good comments folks. The engine has been, and IS running great and not miss firing for the period in question.

I do think the exhaust leak is a worthy problem to consider. I assume we are talking about a leak before the CAT right ?

What I don't understand is, IF there is an exhaust air leak fooling the O2 sensor into telling the ECU to pour the fuel on, isn't this just a "running rich" situation ? and wouldn't the plugs reveal this ?

As far as what could cause the catalyst framework to break free from its attachments to the outer case, I'm wondering how it is adhered ? and could the adhesive fail, ie a defect ?

The vendor says that IF it was defective (the catalyst breaking free) would have happened right away and not after 7k miles.

However I end up getting a replacement, either under warranty, or shelling out another $1200, I'm definitely going to make sure no condition exists that will destroy the CAT prematurely before installing it!

[E1]

I don’t buy the “would have happened right away” argument logically, there’s a lot of production issues in nearly any part on Earth that would defy this. Sounds a little convenient.

Have you called Magnaflow?

I’d also think if all being the same and there was an exhaust leak, the plugs should still match.

I hate to say it, but with the lighting so different on the four plug photos I don’t think we’re seeing how close — or far away — from each other they actually are.

Plug 2 looks best to me, and I think Sodo’s right that they overall look a *little* lean — though it’s close to impossible for anyone to know dead-accurately with the lighting variances.

But overall, I’m more convinced this was a simple parts failure than it was a running condition problem.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[goubeaux]

Of course I do also agree that their argument is pretty "lazy".

I have not contacted Magnaflow yet. They have a well honed warranty process which involves paperwork, receipts etc, and they also say start with the vendor. Their website has all the details.

BTW: Magnaflow is also now selling what looks like an improved version, and for less than GW. So you know where my money is going IF I have to buy a new one!
https://www.magnaflow.com/products/3391918-magnafl...er-3391918

I agree that I could have done a better job at documenting the pulled plugs. I pulled and imaged them one by one, instead of pulling them all at once and lining them up. So conditions did vary a bit. I might redo that after I run a few miles on them and get a more consistent outcome for comparison. I believe this will be useful in making a case for warranty.

It seems that the fact that there is no obvious "smoking gun" with plugs that point to running rich, IS in my favor ?

[DanHoug]

[E1]

Sorry Dan, I, too missed your “previous!”

Onboard as a possible cause now… and on shipping it Magnaflow to exam. I’ve found most (good) companies to be straight with results in cases like this.

Personally, I’d still call in advance to have some idea of policy and/or to not waste even the shipping — but mostly to “know” a contact. Can absolutely tip the scales. Plus I love knowing people, and their gigs. Works magic.

In the end, it’s typical they’d say to talk to whomever sold to you, but if that’s refused a good supplier will work with you and I’d personally, *absolutely* put a voice to that discussion if at all possible.
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman

[xflyer]

goubeaux, if you have not already done so, check the CARB website for info on catalytic converters. There are many rules about this. Here's one page: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/sites/default/files/aftermarket/aftermktcat/installcatq&a.pdf
The spark plugs in the photos look OK. I'd think that the failure of the CAT was due to a manufacturing problem, at 7K miles. Hopefully you have all the documentation: receipt(s), warranty card, etc. Ultimately the manufacturer is responsible for any warranty consideration.
I keep reading posts that state that the CARB compliant CATS have "more" precious metals and work better than the non-CARB cats. Hence a higher price. I think the higher price reflects the required 5 year warranty.
Also the NOx reduction has been a function of CATs for the USA market since the early 1980s. These are so-called 3-way CATs in that they reduce CO (carbon monoxide) by combining an oxygen molecule to it, making CO2, and reduce hydrocarbons by 'burning' residual fuel, and finally reducing NOx. IIRC the CAT breaks apart the NOx into nitrogen and oxygen. The oxygen helps the other functions of the CAT to work better. I doubt if anyone is still selling the old type 2-way CATs.
_________________
1989 Campmobile, 1984 7 passenger beater Vanagon
Both with cool A/C

[goubeaux]

Xflyer, Thanks for that link to the CARB pdf.

Lot's of info there, most of which is confusing and poorly written, however this IS relevant to my situation and I'll paste it below for the benefit of others:

Q. What are the conditions under which the manufacturer must honor the warranty?

A. Aftermarket catalytic converters must be warranted for 5 years or 50,000 miles from defects in materials or workmanship. The warranty covers loss of conversion efficiency, detection of a malfunction within the converter by the vehicle’s OBD system, corrosion of the converter shell and end-pipes, and faulty welding that occurs during the course of normal usage.

Abnormal engine operation, including over fueling, the presence of engine misfire, of excessive oil consumption would not constitute normal use, nor would physical damage to a converter caused by road debris or vehicle accidents.

Should an installer or vehicle owner believe that their warranty claim was unreasonably denied by the converter manufacturer, the CARB staff is available to investigate and possibly mediate such a claim.

[E1]

That sounds great. As mentioned, I’d go test it as is, but now for a different reason. Show up prettied up (not you, specifically).

If you’re anywhere within “test passing” range, that pretty much should exclude it failing from bad running.

I’d suspect the CARB people would fully agree and advise the seller to show a little basic interest next time, if not a little damned courtesy in helping you solve a pollution issue beyond “Pay Now, Pay in Full.”
_________________
‘84 Westy, 2.1L with Digijet, 5.43 R+P, GT Gears
"Adding power makes you faster on the straights.
Subtracting weight makes you faster everywhere."
— Colin Chapman