HP/torque estimate from type 4 engine

purity

How much horsepower and torque do you think I'll get from this engine?

Type 4 2.0 Liter base engine, engine code CJ
2xDellorto DRLA 40mm
1 1/2" fully merged header from TurboThomas (stainless steel)
A not-to-loud muffler (trying to keep the noise at a tolerable level)
Stock heads (unsure of valve sizes)
I'll propably do some light porting
And I might increase the compression to around 8.8:1 by flycutting the heads, I'll do some calculations on what I have first
_________________
- '67 1300 (Original)
- '71 1302 (Daily driver, TIV-engine going in)

miniman82 · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject:

Maybe a hundred, but more torque.
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Build thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=212747

tuna · Samba Member Joined: October 04, 2004 Posts: 475

Overall that's a nice engine, but if you are splitting the crankcase, replace the camshaft. The two things holding the Type 4 engine back are the exhaust and the camshaft.

I'd say 100hp with the stock camshaft, but it will run cooler and smoother with a better camshaft, and still put out more power. I'd say with a nice cam, you could get 120hp. Smile

Tuna
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Type 4: Secrets Revealed

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nextgen · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject:

I agree with Tuna, put in a cam, it is my biggest regret. Not only will the car be faster you will get more MPG!!! THe stock cam is for a Fuel Injected engine.

That basic engine was my big selling point when I first wrote my manual. Because all you were doing was putting in a T-4 of stock size, a 2.0 and winding up with twice the stock HP of a T-1. THe logic was look how much you had to do to get a 100 hp out of stock T-1. Stressing the T-1 was now in question.

The cam is the way to go and you will wind up with 120 to 125 hp and the engine will go easy to well over 150k no problem.
Torque is massive across the the entire range. It pulls forever.
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Jake Raby · Posted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject:

Without enhancing cam you'll have a hard time getting more than 100 REAL HP from that combo and adding CR with the stock cam is recipe for detonation and head temp issues.

Realize that the exhaust system is THE single most important bolt on for ANY TIV, it dictates everything.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

purity · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:00 am Post subject:

Ok, thanks guys. That was kind of the answer I was hoping for, because to get the car road legal with stock beetle brakes in Norway, I can't have more than 100 hp. If I want more I have to buy expen$ive TÜV-approved brakes, and I can't afford that right now.

Later on, when I have more money I will change the cam and buy better/legal brakes.

Jake: You think I should just keep the compression like it is for now then? Keep in mind that in Norway they sell gasoline with an RON of 95 (standard unleaded) and 98 ("super unleaded"). Your regular gasoline (87 octane) is RON 91-92.

And about the exhaust, you don't think the fully merged header from TurboThomas is good?
_________________
- '67 1300 (Original)
- '71 1302 (Daily driver, TIV-engine going in)

miniman82 · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 11:42 am Post subject:

Jake Raby · Posted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject:

Adding CR with the already "crappy" stock cam can cause issues as it has very short duration. The stock cam is responsible for most overheating related issues related to the TIV.

stock cam= stock CR

I haven't used a stock cam in damn near 15 years.. when you pick up 15% power from just a cam swap and no other changes you'll never go back.

The stock cam also has a very narrow powerband, broadening the usable power range is always the first goal with a true street engine.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

purity · Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 2:43 am Post subject:

Well I learned something new today aswell there. Keeping the compression stock then, as long as I don't change the cam. Thanks Smile

If I do change the cam, what would be needed to keep the engine under 100 hp? And what cam would you recommend?

EDIT: After reading Raby's presentation about camshafts I see that this is not something that is done in a day, and it will cost me more than just the price of the cam and lifters themselves. So I've decided to stick with the stock cam for now, and then upgrade the whole valvetrain properly when I can afford that.
_________________
- '67 1300 (Original)
- '71 1302 (Daily driver, TIV-engine going in)

Art Thraen · Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:44 am Post subject:

Simular situation..
I had a customer that had a stock cam in a 1915 type 1 and 9:1 comp. stock heads.

200lb cranking compression and would PING every chance it got.

Sure it would jump like a jack rabbit when you touched the gas, but for the most part it was a TQ'y Pig Engine.

It WOULD NOT rev past 4500.. only made 60HP. it was a waist of time.

Maybe a good engine for deer hunting on rough roads? at altitude?

Jake Raby · Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:19 am Post subject:

purity · Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:53 pm Post subject:

I just got an offer I don't know if I can afford to say no to. One guy over here in Norway has offered to

- overhaul my case/oil system
- measure crank and micro-polish and grind it if necessary
- balancing of the whole crank-assembly including flywheel and pressure plate
- modifying my stock pistons to high compression, and weight adjusting them
- full overhaul of the heads, new springs and more

FOR FREE!

But now I have one essential problem: if I do what I mention above, and I buy a new camshaft etc. (lifters, springs, adjusters and so on), would I still be able to limit the engine to under 100 hp? That is by having small throats in the carbs and perhaps a quieter/more restricting muffler than planned. This would just be temporarily, until I can afford brakes that have TÜV-approval for more hp.
_________________
- '67 1300 (Original)
- '71 1302 (Daily driver, TIV-engine going in)

Jake Raby · Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 4:02 pm Post subject:

It's pretty easy to keep the power down.. Just use small vents or make a restrictor plate for the intake...

And if you raise the CR and do all that work a new cam will be near mandatory.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

purity · Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:10 pm Post subject:

How small venturis would you think is necessary to get it under 100? And how will this effect my jetting? I was going for stock jetting to begin with.

And a restrictor plate, would you install that between the carb and the intake, or between the intake and the head?
_________________
- '67 1300 (Original)
- '71 1302 (Daily driver, TIV-engine going in)

hpw · Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:33 am Post subject:

purity · Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 3:59 am Post subject:

TÜV are a collection of German organizations that test all kinds of products, including car-parts (like disc brake-systems). To get the car road legal with a larger-than-stock engine in Norway I need to get a print from a dyno stating my hp, and I need to have brakes that are approved for the power I have. With stock disc brakes from a beetle I can have up to 100 hp, but if I go over that the only way (or the easiest way at least) to get an approval is by using disc brakes that have TÜV-approval for more hp. Brake systems like that are expensive, and I can't afford that right now.

If I get caught with a bigger engine and no approval I could risk getting my number plates cut off, or I at least have to go to a "traffic station" to get the engine/car approved. If I crash w/o approval and hurt someone/something I propably won't get anything from the insurance company.

Hope that clears things up for you Smile

Does anyone have any good answers for my last post?

I also need to figure out what cam and such I should use. Do you think I need the "Super" valvetrain upgrade kit from Raby, or will the "Basic" suffice?
_________________
- '67 1300 (Original)
- '71 1302 (Daily driver, TIV-engine going in)

hpw · Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:03 am Post subject:

Thanks for that, that sounds pretty strict Sad

.
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nextgen · Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:55 pm Post subject:

I think in the some countries you can't have any rust or rot on the sheet metal. May be the U.K.

Just like here in theNew York, You can put a 911 in a bug, it can be a rot box, you give the guy at the local gas station, which is our inspection station a few dollars and he passes the car.
_________________
email: [email protected]
The TYPE IV UPRIGHT CONVERSION MANUAL
BEETLE MAGNETIC DEFLECTOR SHIELDS
LETS TALK DUBS https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=joe+cali+ghia https://letstalkdubs.libsyn.com/ep-200-joe-cali-ty...qI3xJTCzjs

Randy in Maine · Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject:

melville · Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject:


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