manual transmission

[oasis]

It seems of all of the parts that are scarce to the 412, parts for the manual transmission seem to be the hardest to come by as it is not related to any other VW manual transmission.

What complications -- and, hopefully, solutions -- might one have in just substituting a transmission from a 912E?

(I realize there were only 2,099 912E's made in '76, but I am assuming that tranny wasn't one-year, one-model only and maybe was similar or the same as some of its 911 cousins.)
_________________
Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI

[raygreenwood]

Many.

You might take a look and do a serach over in the 411/412 forum for information. I have posted hundreds (if not thousands) over ther about just this transmission. I have rebuilt several. The shifter linkage, clutch and positioning are very peculiar to this car...and that is complicated by the position of the rear suspension crossmember.
Not saying it cannot be done....but its going to take quite a bit of fabrication for shifter linkage, possibly mounting.....and for sure the gear ratios are a bit odd....

http://www.912registry.org/faqs/origspec.htm

I think....the fifth gear works out to something like about .85:1 ratio (the 411/412 has a 1:1 4th ratio).....but the 411/412 has either a 3.79:1 or a 3.91:1 final drive depending on model and year.

The late 912E had a 4.43:1 final drive. With the .85 4th...hmmm....that works out to about 3.76 final....not bad!
You shoudl work out the rest of the gear ratios multipled by final drive and see if they are close.
The 411/412 with the 004 four speed with a good engine....is a bad-ass combination. Very excellent driving character. With the weight of the car and the torque band....I would hate to mess that up.

I have written volumes on the 004 transmission. If it is not whining and shows no gear spalling on the countershaft...and is not grinding gears...almost all of it can be repaired and can be put back to almost new driving condition with change oe bearings ,gasket and counter shaft.
You will need to fab new counter shaft bushings from Torlon (a whole thread on the STF) or do the short needle bearing mod (also on STF) and replace the counter shaft (they are simple $50 machine work of tool steel, and readjust the shims on the differential output shafts before spalling of the spyder gears happens.
Replace the common shaft seals, replace the differential bearings......and above all....adjust your drivetrain positioning....which is mandatory....but 99.99% of all 411/412 owners do not do....in which case it will NEVER shift properly.

Do the mods...and get maybe 100-150k miles from the box. Skip any one of them and get 5000-50,000 miles with total destruction of all parts when it finally gives out...and 100% of these trannys will die...because the parts I am mentioning are designed as wear parts.

To start with...get all bushings and drivetrain alignment straight before attempting to adjust the shifter....before you can start diagnosing what needs to be done.
Start here:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=129000

When you get ready to do a "refurb" let me know and I will help all I can. This is the simplest VW tranny made to work on. No jigs...few special tools. But the problems that happen to these transmissions through long miles and wear...MUST...MUST...MUST be fixed or it will destroy the box and runin parts that you already know you cannot replace. This gearbox can be stripped bare in about 1.5 hours.
You will need to go to a good bearing and seal company to pick up countershaft needle bearings....or really its better to machine them from torlon (maybe $65....but they will never wear out or damage the shaft). Do the oiling mods and replace the countershaft.

The two things that mess you up on all of these are out of adjustment differential output flanges (its destroys the sypder gears and the yare uniuqe) and the countershaft needle bearings...which destroys the counter shaft gearing in the process....and they are unique. If you catch both of these problems before gear wear happens....the box will last forever.
To diagnose the differential issue....you will need to strip this all the way down. Ray

[oasis]

Thanks.

I have visited STF before, and read a bit -- enough to be a little shy of getting a 411 or a 412 with a manual even though I prefer the coupe to the wagon.

Cutting to the chase with my situation ... I am not generally a DIY'er. I intend to change that when my family moves to a new house which I have mandated needing a proper garage. The ease of that move is restricted right now by having extra parameters associated with my dad and in-laws.

Therefore, as rare as an eligible 411 or 412 crossing my path may be, it still might happen before we move. If that's the case, the process you eloquently described would have to be farmed out to a willing party.

I test drove two 912E's as candidates. I love a 912E as a candidate even though I didn't love either of those two in particular. My imagination was active when thinking about a 412 with a 912E drivetrain.

Thanks. I have plenty to mull over. I can ask more specific questions should I have a genuine candidate in mind. There's a 411 2-door in Oregon for sale right now (as I am sure you and others have noticed). Even if the price were negotiable, I am spooked by it.
_________________
Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI

[raygreenwood]

I can help you out with what you need to do with the transmission. If i remember, there was a thread that someone from Europe had ...and I think the 901 box is actually very close in dimesnions. One of the hardest problems with the 411/412 is that...the tail cone is unique. No bug or bus trannys will fit without very difficult shifter fabbing.
But...The 901 (I think..don't quote me) is very similar.

The performance of the type 4 box is just superb. The shift linkage is mushy but is very easy to fix and not expensive
In reality....all of the mods to the type 4 box are dirt simple. I mean really simple even to have made at a machine shop and simply installed by you.

A type 1,2,3 or any Porsche Box are worlds away more complex and take lots more experience to work on. I am not qualified for those.

However...all gear stack asjustments the type 4 box...other than setting lash and distance on the differential which at least has adjuster built in......are done by three shims. If you take the case apart and reassemble and are using all the same gears and case parts...just put those three shims back in and all adjusting is done. the shim thicknesses are stamped on them. Mic them...and if they are wrong simply take them to any machine shop and have them duplicated. they are very simple and cost would be about $75 for the set of shims. I have never had to replace any worn ones.

The counter shaft replacement....is a simple straight piece of 18mm shaft. I can give you part #'s to order it (about $30) pre hardened and polished. Take it to any machine shop have them cut to specifed length and turn a 1" step of 15mm in one end on a lathe. 10 minutes...about $30....new shaft. Done.
The torlon bushings (torlon is a bearing grade plastic with impact strength greater than glass filled delrin with a slickness rivaling teflon. It is chemically inert and good to about 600F).....I can e-mail you the pattern. Any machine shop can finish them for you for about $60. theyw will never destroy the counter shaft or wear out again...ever.

Seals are available, so are o-rings and are the differential bearings. All else is re-used...i can help you on any damaged synchros either by swapping parts or by shimming the synchros from the back.

The 004 weight less than 70 lbs....has killer gear ratios and very high ratio differntial output stubs, teeth and spyders. Cornering is superb.

Although you might think that having a fifth gear of a 912 gearbox is useful, not really.... in a heavier 411/412 as compared to a lighter 912. The gear ratios of the 004 four speed are made superbly to keep the rpm of the type 4 enegine up where it needs to be in all cruising ranges.
i have driven 911's and 912's. The tpe 4 is actually a bit nicer. The ratio between 3rd and 4th with the final drive is excellent.

I'm actually trying to encourage you to get a oo4 four speed for your car.
I don't actually try to frighten people away. I try to frighten away those who think they will find a 411/412 with a 4 speed ...now 37 years old at best...and simply change the oil andd clutch and drive it. Those that do love it....but are heart broken usually about 2-3 years later....at maybe 50k miles over the 100k+ it already had on it...when the teeth strip offthe pinion gear or shatter on the counter shaft.
All of that could be avoided if you get the transmission and do the necessary work on it before running it into the ground. Ray

[oasis]

That sounds very encouraging indeed. This thread is going into my Type 4 folder.

By the way, my Super Beetle had a 2056cc Type IV engine and a four-speed tranny to match. I never felt the need for a five-speed arrangement in it so I don't need much convincing on that front.
_________________
Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI

[oasis]

I'm ba-a-a-ack. Slightly different situation available ...

A '73 four-door 412 (my favorite) is available about a 1,000 miles away. Haven't seen it yet in person. Two pics look quite impressive. Waiting to see more. Supposedly, it is (yes, present tense) a daily driver that has had its routine maintenance taken care of.

It has the automatic. Supposedly shifts as is should. However, I still favor the manual -- especially since at some point I'd like a 2056 or a 2270 displacement.

I searched for a decent candidate with an 004 from another 412 but instead stumbled across a 923 from a '76 912E.

If the car and the tranny are both as good as I hope they are, what else do I need to shop for or take into consideration to make an eventual swap?
_________________
Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI

[raygreenwood]

Whatever you do, just do not lose the automatic. The automatic has the same final drive ratio as the four speed. They can handle the power of the engine no problem. Its a borg wraner design virtually identical in design to the ones that went into Auids , rabbits and lots of other cars with even larger engines.

The issues with the automatics is that all of them need a basic rseal kit between the differential and transfer case, all of them could use adjusting of the main pressure (the procedure is in the brown bentley type 3 manual) and once you do that...its about as quick as the four speed. Adding a torque converter out of a bus with a higher stall point helps as well.

To add the four speed into an automatic car you need the clutch master cylinder (available if you look or you can put in a vanagon master cylinder)...you need to make a cross shaft for the pedal cluster and find a pedal that fits....some of the audi 4000, 5000, 100 had nearly identical pedals and so did some vanagons. You need to find a four speed brake resovoir with the extra nipple to feed the clutch master...or just add a sperate small resovoir, you need the shift rod and rear linkage couplings, the shift rod support cap for the rear of the tunnel (I can send you dimensions to make one), you need the clutch slave cylinder and 004 transmission with the upper hanger bar complete.

All of the holes for tubing are already in the body. The pedal cluster is the same as the automatic pedal cluster, which hasall of the threaded holes for the clutch master already in it. You need a shifter, a shift gate plate and boot. Ray

[oasis]

Ouch ... so I still would need much of the same stuff as I would had I stumbled across an 004. I was hoping maybe some more readily available parts -- maybe Porsche, maybe more pricey, but still more readily available -- could be used to make the conversion easier.

As for keeping parts, my situation is better and should stay that way. We have a large rented storage area while trying to sell our house. If it ever sells, our next house will have accommodations, too.

I suppose I could still look at the 412 although some wind has been taken out of my sails. Besides the Vanagon and Audi bits, it seems like I'm back to thinking about a donor two-door with a manual that needs extensive refurbishing.

Thanks for the info as always, Ray.
_________________
Now: 2003 New Beetle Turbo S / 1990 Single Cab Transporter / 2014 Tiguan R-Line 4motion / 2013 Tiguan S / 2002 Golf GLS TDI
Past: 1974 Thing Acapulco / 2009 Eos Komfort / 1997 Jetta GT / 2002 Cabrio GLX / 2002 Passat GLS / 1971 Super Beetle / 1993 EuroVan MV Westfalia / 1981 Pickup LX / 1985 Vanagon / 1986 Jetta GLI

[raygreenwood]

Yes....the very best route is to find a donor car with a 004 already in it.

Its really not hard to make the swap. If you have just the transmission....All of the holes, threads, chaneels and drillings are are all of the vehicles.
If you loook closely uder the undercoating in the rear you will find a plug that pulls out to allow the clutch hydraulic tube to fit through. The hold downs and channel for the fluid tube are already in the body of automatic cars. The threaded bosses for the clutch master cylinder are already in the pedal cluster of the automatic. Its the same pedal cluster
So...you can either swap pedal clusters complete with crossshaft and pedals...or simply get a piece of 19mm shaft and swap it for the brake pedal cross shaft that is already in there. From there you need to find pedals and few small bits...and bolt in your clutch master cylinder. As I said, the pedals are nearly identical to mid and late 80's audis and vanagons.

Its most probable from everything I an tell that a shifter from a bus or type 3 could be used....but you will need a type 4 shift plate. The boss for teh shift rod bushing is already welded into all bodies even on teh automatic cars. It uses a type 1 bushing. I can measure my shift rod when you are ready and you can make one. Same for the rear coupling and the tunnel support rod disc. Its all very light fabricating. No machine work. Ray

Its steel line all the way to the tail cone of teh transmission.

[Chris Walden]

Yes, it is an easy swap. I did it to a station wagon once (many moons ago). But then I had EVERYTHING that I had salvaged from my wrecked 2 door sedan (thank you brother Mark). I still have it all to because---well, you never know. But if I ever do get another type 4 I really, really want another 2 door sedan. Not only is it inherently lighter, stiffer and quieter (2 less doors) but to my minds eye the coolest looking. But then I to, would be really interested in doing the 5 speed thing. I just like the idea of rowing through 5 cogs. So Ray, are you saying that the 912E 5 speed isn't an over drive unit? Just closer spaced ratios (not a bad thing)? I think you say up there somewhere that the ratios are all wrong for the type 4. If they're right for a 912 why not a 412?


chrismo

[raygreenwood]

These would not be perfect transmissions for a 411/412...depending on the motor you have. In a stockish or hot stock type 4....the main power/torque band that is used is between about 2500 and 3500. The final drive ratio on the the 411/412 is high...3.73 or 3.91:1.
This is what makes the 004 drive so well off the line.

The Porsche 912..depending on the gearbox...has final drive of either 4.83:1 or 4.42:1.

The 4th gears in the 912 five speed are largely 1:1 or very close. The fifth gear is typically .85:1 or .79:1 or .91:1 or .72:1.



The 004 has these:

Type 4 manual transmission drive ratios:
First: 3.81:1
Second: 2.11:1
Third: 1.4:1
Fourth: 1:1
Final Drive: 3.73:1 or 3.91:1


For comparison this is one set of 912 ratios:

First: 3.09:1
Second: 1.88:1
Third: 1.21:1
fourth: 1.04:1
Fifth: .857:1
Final drive: 4.42:1

There are too many combinations of 912 to list them all but you can look at them here:http://www.912registry.org/restore/trans_table.htm

Here is an example of the issue:

004 transmission in first gear @ 2000 rpm. With a first gear ratio 3.81:1 gear ratio it takes 3.81 turns of the input shaft from the engine to make 1 revolution of the driven shaft feeding the differential and wheels.
Thats 2000 rpm/3.81= 524.9 rpms to the differential with a final drive of 3.73:1.
So that 524.9 rpm shaft must turn that differential 3.73 turns for every 1 turn of output at the wheels. 524.9 rpm/ 3.73= 140 rpms at the wheel.

Thats not bad because the 3.09 in the 912 gives 146 rpm from 2000 engine rpm. But let me give you a comparison of the whole picture:

Lets look at wheel shaft rpm at a real world shift speed of say 3500 rpm.

412 wheel rpm @ 3500 rpm shift points
1st 246 rpm
2nd 444.7 rpm
3rd 670.2 rpm
4th 938.3 rpm


912 wheel rpm @ 3500 rpm shift points
1st 256 rpm
2nd 421.1 rpm
3rd 654.4 rpm
4th 761.3 rpm
5th 923.9 rpm



So you can see that its going to take higher revs to reach the otherwise same speed. If your cam, ignition and exhaust are right and you want to be revving that much...cool...but otherwise in traffic...with less shifting the 412 will be quicker in all gears except first if the motor is equal.
Ray

[oasis]

[Bill K.]

It does. The 912E with 2.0L T4 would seem to have an optimized trans by Porsche.

Wheel speed at 3500 rpm motor:

Gear/412/912E
1/246/248
2/445/431
3/670/627
4/938/822
5/na/1092

E is quicker

Bill

[raygreenwood]

Yes....that is better. If you can make it fit, it would be nice.
Ray

[Bill K.]

Shad Laws put a 923 in a T3 with a T4 motor so fit in a 411 is probable. 411 would need 914 flywheel, PP, clutch disk. Also, shiter conversion and cable clutch conversion. 923 has one-year only throw-out bearing and some gears, but shares internals of the beefy 915 box.

It would be a fun project for the right 411, but in the end trading one rare trans for another. Yet, 923 5-speed and beefier may be worth it for a hi-po 411.

[raygreenwood]

I remember that car and Shad. Wonder what he is up to these days. I would keep the hydraulic clutch and use a relay lever and an externally mounted slave. then you could use any slave you want. Easier than installing a cable in a type 4. Ray