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randywebb
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

someone must have those things fabbed up...

back to safety:

SYNCRO, being taller only about 2'', has a ballast of 308 pounds., very low, under the wheel center.

Yes, and that will help - BUT is VW claiming that the result is that it is at least as stable in rollover as 2WD??

not that the 2wd is particularly stable against rollovers compared with, say, a station wagon
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellenic vanagon wrote:
PDXWesty wrote:
It's just a simple statistic of fatalities per number of vehicles registered. It's just a benchmark to make simple comparisons.


Sir, do you have a rough estimation of your vehicle's load the moment of crash?

Shocked


I've weighed the van many time when I'm loaded with gear. On that trip I would say between 5000-5200 lbs. What you don't see in my pictures was the 22 cf Thule box (full) and the 14" canoe that were on the three bar Yakima rack that was on top of the van at the time of the crash. The entire set up went flying off the van and landed 100 feet down the road before it came to a stop. It was surreal to see the canoe flying overhead and sliding down the road as I just watched in slow motion amazement.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PDXWesty wrote:
hellenic vanagon wrote:
PDXWesty wrote:
It's just a simple statistic of fatalities per number of vehicles registered. It's just a benchmark to make simple comparisons.


Sir, do you have a rough estimation of your vehicle's load the moment of crash?

Shocked


I've weighed the van many time when I'm loaded with gear. On that trip I would say between 5000-5200 lbs. What you don't see in my pictures was the 22 cf Thule box (full) and the 14" canoe that were on the three bar Yakima rack that was on top of the van at the time of the crash. The entire set up went flying off the van and landed 100 feet down the road before it came to a stop. It was surreal to see the canoe flying overhead and sliding down the road as I just watched in slow motion amazement.



Please confirm: 5000-5200 lbs you mean the car plus the cargo=the total.

Or the cargo only was that heavy?

Shocked
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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

randywebb wrote:
someone must have those things fabbed up...

back to safety:

SYNCRO, being taller only about 2'', has a ballast of 308 pounds., very low, under the wheel center.

Yes, and that will help - BUT is VW claiming that the result is that it is at least as stable in rollover as 2WD??

not that the 2wd is particularly stable against rollovers compared with, say, a station wagon


Unfortunately I have no access to such a direct comparison data.

But having both cars, 2WD and SYNCRO in the past, I can tell you what everybody else had trying both: although 2WD is very stable, there is no comparison between them. SYNCRO is much better, totally better, (active and passive safety, better brakes, double chassis etc.).

Firstly, SYNCRO glues on the road when fast cornering, even on slippery surfaces, even with no perfect tires. (It saved twice my life).
It tops out in slalom and skipad tests.

On the other hand, it is very difficult to rollover SYNCRO.
Please have a look here where a camper with load on roof is tested:

http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=859



Very Happy
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PDXWesty
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The van plus the cargo = 5000 lbs.
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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PDXWesty wrote:
The van plus the cargo = 5000 lbs.


Thank you very much.


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GBA 88West LA
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds like a stupid question but how do you think the safety aspect is effected with a van whose nose has been redone, ive seen many vans with deer damage for example that are totaled by the ins co...ive seen these noses cut then reassembled with a donor nose clip, if done properly would the safety be effected or not
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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GBA 88West LA wrote:
sounds like a stupid question but how do you think the safety aspect is effected with a van whose nose has been redone, ive seen many vans with deer damage for example that are totaled by the ins co...ive seen these noses cut then reassembled with a donor nose clip, if done properly would the safety be effected or not


Is the question for me?

As far as I know, good such repairs with Argon, are without safety degradation.


Confused
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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

randywebb wrote:
I don't know what you are comparing them to, but obviously it cannot be a sedan or sports car, or a coupe.

Perhaps you are comparing them to a US full size van??



Talking about brakes and active safety, I found some data from "Popular mechanics". I hope they are comparable, because there is a 12 year gap between tests.

The data are for the VANAGON SYNCRO, (20% stronger brakes than the 2WD, but heavier), which is tested, with it's narrow 205 70 14 tires. And say that because SYNCRO's owners know that it is not a descent dimension for this car.
(I am using 255 60 15 and I am planning for even bigger. With these tires when applying the, (standard), brakes strongly, it is difficult not to slip from the seat! Anyway, the Southafrican ventilated disks are a must.).

So...

A) 60-0(f) BRAKING

VANAGON SYNCRO : 139

PONTIAC MONTANA : 154 (ABS)

PLYMOUTH VOYAGER : 171 (ABS)

CHEVROLET VENTURE LT: 142 (ABS)


B)SLALOM 525 ft mph

VANAGON SYNCRO: 52.25 TOP

HIGHEST

MAZDA MPV ES: 44.00

LOWEST

PLYMOUTH VOYAGER: 40.9


C)SKIPAD (lateral g)


VANAGON SYNCRO: .68


PONTIAC MONTANA : .66

PLYMOUTH VOYAGER : .60

CHEVROLET VENTURE LT: .65


And the real thing:

VANAGON
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the car and driver specs and the pic of the specs above, I don't see a Vanagon listed. Not that I'm a doubter!

So we know the vans are suppose to crumple around us. What does adding a big bumper do to the crumple zone?

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrobewesty wrote:
In the car and driver specs and the pic of the specs above it I don't see a Vanagon listed.

So we know the vans are suppose to crumple around us. What does adding a big bumper do to the crumple zone?



1)Vanagon is the first picture from November 1987. You are right. I add the name.

2)If properly designed and fitted then it may contribute to the crumple zone.

I cant say for the above. Is it screwed on the "deformation element", as usually, or welded?

The only way is to weld it all around and with proper reinforcements in some points. One key is that the total thing, old bumper plus addition, must be strong enough to rise from its far point the total vehicle with a high lift, without any deformation. It is something which can be done with the original bumper and must be retained as a minimum quality point.

The deformation, in case of an accident must be horizontal, (parallel to the ground), and not in a way that the added part intrudes into the crumple zone making more damages than the accident itself. It is not an easy task.

Personally prefer the addition of a second deformation element, you can buy it as spare part, and is sitting exactly on spot, having the accurate dimensions to weld it on the original element. Reinforcements needed to achieve proper "accordion" horizontal deformation in case of an accident.

The bullbar in the picture of your van seems to be very strong! Nice!


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GBA 88West LA
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellenic vanagon wrote:
GBA 88West LA wrote:
sounds like a stupid question but how do you think the safety aspect is effected with a van whose nose has been redone, ive seen many vans with deer damage for example that are totaled by the ins co...ive seen these noses cut then reassembled with a donor nose clip, if done properly would the safety be effected or not


Is the question for me?

As far as I know, good such repairs with Argon, are without safety degradation.


Confused
thanks hellenic , a friend of mine has one such vanagon and sometimes when im in the front passenger seat i wonder ? Shocked
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PDXWesty
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jrobewesty wrote:

So we know the vans are suppose to crumple around us. What does adding a big bumper do to the crumple zone?


"Crumple" may be the incorrect technical term. From my understanding, the van is built with a rigid structure to transfer energy around us, not crumple and absorb energy. A big bumper would probably only add to that structure making it even safer.
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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PDXWesty wrote:
jrobewesty wrote:

So we know the vans are suppose to crumple around us. What does adding a big bumper do to the crumple zone?


"Crumple" may be the incorrect technical term. From my understanding, the van is built with a rigid structure to transfer energy around us, not crumple and absorb energy. A big bumper would probably only add to that structure making it even safer.



In order to make this structure:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



to achieve better results, we may do three things:

1)Reinforce the, (yellow), main parallel chassis bars, which although are of a very high stiffness, (7 grades when "common" cars have not more than 3-4, with rare exceptions, and VW family cars have up to 2), have a backling tendency under severe stress.

Here is chassis stiffness board:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.





The best way to do it in a factory like manner, is to put SYNCRO's front suspension subframe:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



It is costly, because the front suspension has to change, also.


2)Putting the protective plate, or something even stronger, we discuss previously, a split of the energy, in case of a crash, is achieved sending a big portion on the second parallel chassis, which is practically the subframe.

Now the backling of the main chassis is much more difficult.


3)As we can see in the above foto, the number one part is the "deformation element". Having a reinforcement of the protective cage up to now, and making it even harder and rigider, we need to have a wider absorbing element and it is easy to achieve by argon welding a second such element on the initial:

("The cruncher'')
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.




Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a GREAT thread. Very informative.

In discussing safety pros/cons for 2WD v. syncro, would the center of gravity change so much as to be dangerous if a 1.5" lift (springs such as GW or other) were added to a 2WD?

There has been comments that syncros are higher, therefore that is safer, in addition to the stronger frame...
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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tarandusVDub wrote:
This is a GREAT thread. Very informative.

In discussing safety pros/cons for 2WD v. syncro, would the center of gravity change so much as to be dangerous if a 1.5" lift (springs such as GW or other) were added to a 2WD?

There has been comments that syncros are higher, therefore that is safer, in addition to the stronger frame...


Strictly speaking, the factory way for a SYNCRO, is to lift it, in comparison to a 2WD, but adding ballast! (300 lbs).

Of tremendous importance is the rate of the springs, meaning how stiff the new springs will be. The softer they are the more prone is the car to rollover.

Talking specially for the front suspension , if the vehicle is used with the 2 front seats occupied and with cargo inside, looking from outside you see that the front bumper is much lower than the normal.

For a Vanagon this is a very bad thing because all its defense for the crashes is seriously degraded! You can observe in such cases that the "deformation element" goes under another car's bumper and that is not helpful at all, not permitting full protection.

Bear in mind that the height of the front bumper decreases even more when simply braking!

So it is a very good idea for the vehicle's passive safety, especially for a heavily loaded driven one, to do one of the next things:

1)Raise the front end with longer springs. The percentage is, about 2:1, meaning that adding one inch spring height you raise 2 inches the bumper. Caution! The standard absorbers top out very soon! (But if you drive with loaded car you do not have to worry about that, because with taller springs simply the car is parallel to the road, so is o.k..).

2)Put some suspension airbags, parallel to springs, so you raise it according the load and your taste!


Observe for any legal restrictions!



Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellenic vanagon wrote:
tarandusVDub wrote:
This is a GREAT thread. Very informative.

In discussing safety pros/cons for 2WD v. syncro, would the center of gravity change so much as to be dangerous if a 1.5" lift (springs such as GW or other) were added to a 2WD?

There has been comments that syncros are higher, therefore that is safer, in addition to the stronger frame...


Strictly speaking, the factory way for a SYNCRO, is to lift it, in comparison to a 2WD, but adding ballast! (300 lbs).

Of tremendous importance is the rate of the springs, meaning how stiff the new springs will be. The softer they are the more prone is the car to rollover.

Talking specially for the front suspension , if the vehicle is used with the 2 front seats occupied and with cargo inside, looking from outside you see that the front bumper is much lower than the normal.

For a Vanagon this is a very bad thing because all its defense for the crashes is seriously degraded! You can observe in such cases that the "deformation element" goes under another car's bumper and that is not helpful at all, not permitting full protection.

Bear in mind that the height of the front bumper decreases even more when simply braking!

So it is a very good idea for the vehicle's passive safety, especially for a heavily loaded driven one, to do one of the next things:

1)Raise the front end with longer springs. The percentage is, about 2:1, meaning that adding one inch spring height you raise 2 inches the bumper. Caution! The standard absorbers top out very soon!

2)Put some suspension airbags, parallel to springs, so you raise it according the load and your taste!


Observe for any legal restrictions!



Very Happy

Applause Hellenic Vanagon, great job! How do you know so much about this? Were you one the original syncro engineers? Wink
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hellenic vanagon
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

candyman wrote:
hellenic vanagon wrote:
tarandusVDub wrote:
This is a GREAT thread. Very informative.

In discussing safety pros/cons for 2WD v. syncro, would the center of gravity change so much as to be dangerous if a 1.5" lift (springs such as GW or other) were added to a 2WD?

There has been comments that syncros are higher, therefore that is safer, in addition to the stronger frame...


Strictly speaking, the factory way for a SYNCRO, is to lift it, in comparison to a 2WD, but adding ballast! (300 lbs).

Of tremendous importance is the rate of the springs, meaning how stiff the new springs will be. The softer they are the more prone is the car to rollover.

Talking specially for the front suspension , if the vehicle is used with the 2 front seats occupied and with cargo inside, looking from outside you see that the front bumper is much lower than the normal.

For a Vanagon this is a very bad thing because all its defense for the crashes is seriously degraded! You can observe in such cases that the "deformation element" goes under another car's bumper and that is not helpful at all, not permitting full protection.

Bear in mind that the height of the front bumper decreases even more when simply braking!

So it is a very good idea for the vehicle's passive safety, especially for a heavily loaded driven one, to do one of the next things:

1)Raise the front end with longer springs. The percentage is, about 2:1, meaning that adding one inch spring height you raise 2 inches the bumper. Caution! The standard absorbers top out very soon!

2)Put some suspension airbags, parallel to springs, so you raise it according the load and your taste!


Observe for any legal restrictions!



Very Happy

Applause Hellenic Vanagon, great job! How do you know so much about this? Were you one the original syncro engineers? Wink


Thank you very much! I wish I was!
But I am simply a researcher and an admirer!
(And an every day user in all conditions, from 1980 to 2001 in its 2WD and 4WD form. My SYNCRO waits 10 years for its new upgrade, unable to move due to electrics).
I am collecting data from 1980 about it.

My three "inventions" about are:

1)The front, huge, hidden air spoiler.
2)The explanation of the position of the two parallel but not coincided axles for the rear trailing arms.
3)The, previously mentioned, "cruncher".


Very Happy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another study, in which the Vanagon doesn't look as good.

http://www.folksam.se/polopoly_fs/1.11226!/webbversioneng_R6546.pdf
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jmranger wrote:
Another study, in which the Vanagon doesn't look as good.

http://www.folksam.se/polopoly_fs/1.11226!/webbversioneng_R6546.pdf


Looks to me like they simply don't have test figures for Vanagon/Caravelle. I could be wrong though.
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