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randywebb
Samba Member
Joined: February 15, 2005
Posts: 3815
Location: Greater Metropolitan Nimrod, Orygun
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 Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:31 pm Post subject: |
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someone must have those things fabbed up...
back to safety:
SYNCRO, being taller only about 2'', has a ballast of 308 pounds., very low, under the wheel center.
Yes, and that will help - BUT is VW claiming that the result is that it is at least as stable in rollover as 2WD??
not that the 2wd is particularly stable against rollovers compared with, say, a station wagon
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1986 2.1L Westy 2wd Auto Trans. |
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PDXWesty
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 6344
Location: Portland OR
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| Posted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| hellenic vanagon wrote: |
| PDXWesty wrote: |
| It's just a simple statistic of fatalities per number of vehicles registered. It's just a benchmark to make simple comparisons. |
Sir, do you have a rough estimation of your vehicle's load the moment of crash?
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I've weighed the van many time when I'm loaded with gear. On that trip I would say between 5000-5200 lbs. What you don't see in my pictures was the 22 cf Thule box (full) and the 14" canoe that were on the three bar Yakima rack that was on top of the van at the time of the crash. The entire set up went flying off the van and landed 100 feet down the road before it came to a stop. It was surreal to see the canoe flying overhead and sliding down the road as I just watched in slow motion amazement.
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89 Westy 2.1 Auto |
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hellenic vanagon
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:05 am Post subject: |
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| PDXWesty wrote: |
| hellenic vanagon wrote: |
| PDXWesty wrote: |
| It's just a simple statistic of fatalities per number of vehicles registered. It's just a benchmark to make simple comparisons. |
Sir, do you have a rough estimation of your vehicle's load the moment of crash?
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I've weighed the van many time when I'm loaded with gear. On that trip I would say between 5000-5200 lbs. What you don't see in my pictures was the 22 cf Thule box (full) and the 14" canoe that were on the three bar Yakima rack that was on top of the van at the time of the crash. The entire set up went flying off the van and landed 100 feet down the road before it came to a stop. It was surreal to see the canoe flying overhead and sliding down the road as I just watched in slow motion amazement.
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Please confirm: 5000-5200 lbs you mean the car plus the cargo=the total.
Or the cargo only was that heavy?
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hellenic vanagon
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| randywebb wrote: |
someone must have those things fabbed up...
back to safety:
SYNCRO, being taller only about 2'', has a ballast of 308 pounds., very low, under the wheel center.
Yes, and that will help - BUT is VW claiming that the result is that it is at least as stable in rollover as 2WD??
not that the 2wd is particularly stable against rollovers compared with, say, a station wagon |
Unfortunately I have no access to such a direct comparison data.
But having both cars, 2WD and SYNCRO in the past, I can tell you what everybody else had trying both: although 2WD is very stable, there is no comparison between them. SYNCRO is much better, totally better, (active and passive safety, better brakes, double chassis etc.).
Firstly, SYNCRO glues on the road when fast cornering, even on slippery surfaces, even with no perfect tires. (It saved twice my life).
It tops out in slalom and skipad tests.
On the other hand, it is very difficult to rollover SYNCRO.
Please have a look here where a camper with load on roof is tested:
http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=859
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PDXWesty
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 6344
Location: Portland OR
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 8:59 am Post subject: |
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The van plus the cargo = 5000 lbs.
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89 Westy 2.1 Auto |
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hellenic vanagon
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:02 am Post subject: |
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| PDXWesty wrote: |
| The van plus the cargo = 5000 lbs. |
Thank you very much.
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GBA 88West LA
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Joined: September 04, 2008
Posts: 1279
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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sounds like a stupid question but how do you think the safety aspect is effected with a van whose nose has been redone, ive seen many vans with deer damage for example that are totaled by the ins co...ive seen these noses cut then reassembled with a donor nose clip, if done properly would the safety be effected or not
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88 Westy GL Vanaru 07 2.5 EJ25/AA Trans/oiling plates, 1.14 3rd-.77-4th..solar powered cabin |
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hellenic vanagon
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| GBA 88West LA wrote: |
| sounds like a stupid question but how do you think the safety aspect is effected with a van whose nose has been redone, ive seen many vans with deer damage for example that are totaled by the ins co...ive seen these noses cut then reassembled with a donor nose clip, if done properly would the safety be effected or not |
Is the question for me?
As far as I know, good such repairs with Argon, are without safety degradation.
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hellenic vanagon
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| randywebb wrote: |
I don't know what you are comparing them to, but obviously it cannot be a sedan or sports car, or a coupe.
Perhaps you are comparing them to a US full size van?? |
Talking about brakes and active safety, I found some data from "Popular mechanics". I hope they are comparable, because there is a 12 year gap between tests.
The data are for the VANAGON SYNCRO, (20% stronger brakes than the 2WD, but heavier), which is tested, with it's narrow 205 70 14 tires. And say that because SYNCRO's owners know that it is not a descent dimension for this car.
(I am using 255 60 15 and I am planning for even bigger. With these tires when applying the, (standard), brakes strongly, it is difficult not to slip from the seat! Anyway, the Southafrican ventilated disks are a must.).
So...
A) 60-0(f) BRAKING
VANAGON SYNCRO : 139
PONTIAC MONTANA : 154 (ABS)
PLYMOUTH VOYAGER : 171 (ABS)
CHEVROLET VENTURE LT: 142 (ABS)
B)SLALOM 525 ft mph
VANAGON SYNCRO: 52.25 TOP
HIGHEST
MAZDA MPV ES: 44.00
LOWEST
PLYMOUTH VOYAGER: 40.9
C)SKIPAD (lateral g)
VANAGON SYNCRO: .68
PONTIAC MONTANA : .66
PLYMOUTH VOYAGER : .60
CHEVROLET VENTURE LT: .65
And the real thing:
VANAGON
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Last edited by hellenic vanagon on Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:54 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JeffRobenolt 
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Joined: February 25, 2007
Posts: 1531
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:39 am Post subject: |
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In the car and driver specs and the pic of the specs above, I don't see a Vanagon listed. Not that I'm a doubter!
So we know the vans are suppose to crumple around us. What does adding a big bumper do to the crumple zone?
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Last edited by JeffRobenolt on Wed Nov 16, 2011 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total |
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hellenic vanagon
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| jrobewesty wrote: |
In the car and driver specs and the pic of the specs above it I don't see a Vanagon listed.
So we know the vans are suppose to crumple around us. What does adding a big bumper do to the crumple zone?
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1)Vanagon is the first picture from November 1987. You are right. I add the name.
2)If properly designed and fitted then it may contribute to the crumple zone.
I cant say for the above. Is it screwed on the "deformation element", as usually, or welded?
The only way is to weld it all around and with proper reinforcements in some points. One key is that the total thing, old bumper plus addition, must be strong enough to rise from its far point the total vehicle with a high lift, without any deformation. It is something which can be done with the original bumper and must be retained as a minimum quality point.
The deformation, in case of an accident must be horizontal, (parallel to the ground), and not in a way that the added part intrudes into the crumple zone making more damages than the accident itself. It is not an easy task.
Personally prefer the addition of a second deformation element, you can buy it as spare part, and is sitting exactly on spot, having the accurate dimensions to weld it on the original element. Reinforcements needed to achieve proper "accordion" horizontal deformation in case of an accident.
The bullbar in the picture of your van seems to be very strong! Nice!
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GBA 88West LA
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2008
Posts: 1279
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| hellenic vanagon wrote: |
| GBA 88West LA wrote: |
| sounds like a stupid question but how do you think the safety aspect is effected with a van whose nose has been redone, ive seen many vans with deer damage for example that are totaled by the ins co...ive seen these noses cut then reassembled with a donor nose clip, if done properly would the safety be effected or not |
Is the question for me?
As far as I know, good such repairs with Argon, are without safety degradation.
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thanks hellenic , a friend of mine has one such vanagon and sometimes when im in the front passenger seat i wonder ?
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88 Westy GL Vanaru 07 2.5 EJ25/AA Trans/oiling plates, 1.14 3rd-.77-4th..solar powered cabin |
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PDXWesty
Samba Member
Joined: April 11, 2006
Posts: 6344
Location: Portland OR
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| jrobewesty wrote: |
So we know the vans are suppose to crumple around us. What does adding a big bumper do to the crumple zone? |
"Crumple" may be the incorrect technical term. From my understanding, the van is built with a rigid structure to transfer energy around us, not crumple and absorb energy. A big bumper would probably only add to that structure making it even safer.
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hellenic vanagon
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:32 am Post subject: |
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| PDXWesty wrote: |
| jrobewesty wrote: |
So we know the vans are suppose to crumple around us. What does adding a big bumper do to the crumple zone? |
"Crumple" may be the incorrect technical term. From my understanding, the van is built with a rigid structure to transfer energy around us, not crumple and absorb energy. A big bumper would probably only add to that structure making it even safer. |
In order to make this structure:
to achieve better results, we may do three things:
1)Reinforce the, (yellow), main parallel chassis bars, which although are of a very high stiffness, (7 grades when "common" cars have not more than 3-4, with rare exceptions, and VW family cars have up to 2), have a backling tendency under severe stress.
Here is chassis stiffness board:
The best way to do it in a factory like manner, is to put SYNCRO's front suspension subframe:
It is costly, because the front suspension has to change, also.
2)Putting the protective plate, or something even stronger, we discuss previously, a split of the energy, in case of a crash, is achieved sending a big portion on the second parallel chassis, which is practically the subframe.
Now the backling of the main chassis is much more difficult.
3)As we can see in the above foto, the number one part is the "deformation element". Having a reinforcement of the protective cage up to now, and making it even harder and rigider, we need to have a wider absorbing element and it is easy to achieve by argon welding a second such element on the initial:
("The cruncher'')
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tarandusVDub
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Joined: August 27, 2010
Posts: 1683
Location: Between Here and There
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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This is a GREAT thread. Very informative.
In discussing safety pros/cons for 2WD v. syncro, would the center of gravity change so much as to be dangerous if a 1.5" lift (springs such as GW or other) were added to a 2WD?
There has been comments that syncros are higher, therefore that is safer, in addition to the stronger frame...
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1990 Syncro 16" DoppleKabine 2.1 DJ 112i
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Sold: 1972 Bay Campmobile; 1984 Westy, base model, 2WD. |
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hellenic vanagon
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:51 pm Post subject: |
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| tarandusVDub wrote: |
This is a GREAT thread. Very informative.
In discussing safety pros/cons for 2WD v. syncro, would the center of gravity change so much as to be dangerous if a 1.5" lift (springs such as GW or other) were added to a 2WD?
There has been comments that syncros are higher, therefore that is safer, in addition to the stronger frame... |
Strictly speaking, the factory way for a SYNCRO, is to lift it, in comparison to a 2WD, but adding ballast! (300 lbs).
Of tremendous importance is the rate of the springs, meaning how stiff the new springs will be. The softer they are the more prone is the car to rollover.
Talking specially for the front suspension , if the vehicle is used with the 2 front seats occupied and with cargo inside, looking from outside you see that the front bumper is much lower than the normal.
For a Vanagon this is a very bad thing because all its defense for the crashes is seriously degraded! You can observe in such cases that the "deformation element" goes under another car's bumper and that is not helpful at all, not permitting full protection.
Bear in mind that the height of the front bumper decreases even more when simply braking!
So it is a very good idea for the vehicle's passive safety, especially for a heavily loaded driven one, to do one of the next things:
1)Raise the front end with longer springs. The percentage is, about 2:1, meaning that adding one inch spring height you raise 2 inches the bumper. Caution! The standard absorbers top out very soon! (But if you drive with loaded car you do not have to worry about that, because with taller springs simply the car is parallel to the road, so is o.k..).
2)Put some suspension airbags, parallel to springs, so you raise it according the load and your taste!
Observe for any legal restrictions!
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Last edited by hellenic vanagon on Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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candyman
Samba Trout Slayer
Joined: December 20, 2003
Posts: 2717
Location: Missoula MT
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:55 pm Post subject: |
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| hellenic vanagon wrote: |
| tarandusVDub wrote: |
This is a GREAT thread. Very informative.
In discussing safety pros/cons for 2WD v. syncro, would the center of gravity change so much as to be dangerous if a 1.5" lift (springs such as GW or other) were added to a 2WD?
There has been comments that syncros are higher, therefore that is safer, in addition to the stronger frame... |
Strictly speaking, the factory way for a SYNCRO, is to lift it, in comparison to a 2WD, but adding ballast! (300 lbs).
Of tremendous importance is the rate of the springs, meaning how stiff the new springs will be. The softer they are the more prone is the car to rollover.
Talking specially for the front suspension , if the vehicle is used with the 2 front seats occupied and with cargo inside, looking from outside you see that the front bumper is much lower than the normal.
For a Vanagon this is a very bad thing because all its defense for the crashes is seriously degraded! You can observe in such cases that the "deformation element" goes under another car's bumper and that is not helpful at all, not permitting full protection.
Bear in mind that the height of the front bumper decreases even more when simply braking!
So it is a very good idea for the vehicle's passive safety, especially for a heavily loaded driven one, to do one of the next things:
1)Raise the front end with longer springs. The percentage is, about 2:1, meaning that adding one inch spring height you raise 2 inches the bumper. Caution! The standard absorbers top out very soon!
2)Put some suspension airbags, parallel to springs, so you raise it according the load and your taste!
Observe for any legal restrictions!
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 Hellenic Vanagon, great job! How do you know so much about this? Were you one the original syncro engineers?  |
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hellenic vanagon
Samba Member
Joined: December 28, 2007
Posts: 283
Location: ATHENS GREECE
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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| candyman wrote: |
| hellenic vanagon wrote: |
| tarandusVDub wrote: |
This is a GREAT thread. Very informative.
In discussing safety pros/cons for 2WD v. syncro, would the center of gravity change so much as to be dangerous if a 1.5" lift (springs such as GW or other) were added to a 2WD?
There has been comments that syncros are higher, therefore that is safer, in addition to the stronger frame... |
Strictly speaking, the factory way for a SYNCRO, is to lift it, in comparison to a 2WD, but adding ballast! (300 lbs).
Of tremendous importance is the rate of the springs, meaning how stiff the new springs will be. The softer they are the more prone is the car to rollover.
Talking specially for the front suspension , if the vehicle is used with the 2 front seats occupied and with cargo inside, looking from outside you see that the front bumper is much lower than the normal.
For a Vanagon this is a very bad thing because all its defense for the crashes is seriously degraded! You can observe in such cases that the "deformation element" goes under another car's bumper and that is not helpful at all, not permitting full protection.
Bear in mind that the height of the front bumper decreases even more when simply braking!
So it is a very good idea for the vehicle's passive safety, especially for a heavily loaded driven one, to do one of the next things:
1)Raise the front end with longer springs. The percentage is, about 2:1, meaning that adding one inch spring height you raise 2 inches the bumper. Caution! The standard absorbers top out very soon!
2)Put some suspension airbags, parallel to springs, so you raise it according the load and your taste!
Observe for any legal restrictions!
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Hellenic Vanagon, great job! How do you know so much about this? Were you one the original syncro engineers? |
Thank you very much! I wish I was!
But I am simply a researcher and an admirer!
(And an every day user in all conditions, from 1980 to 2001 in its 2WD and 4WD form. My SYNCRO waits 10 years for its new upgrade, unable to move due to electrics).
I am collecting data from 1980 about it.
My three "inventions" about are:
1)The front, huge, hidden air spoiler.
2)The explanation of the position of the two parallel but not coincided axles for the rear trailing arms.
3)The, previously mentioned, "cruncher".
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jmranger
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Joined: January 14, 2010
Posts: 701
Location: Quebec
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dixoncj
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Joined: June 17, 2004
Posts: 1085
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:35 pm Post subject: |
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Looks to me like they simply don't have test figures for Vanagon/Caravelle. I could be wrong though. |
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