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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: May 17, 2003
Posts: 4873
Location: Harmony, PA
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 Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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I thought these had the same principal of dropped spindles? You know when you lower your car with the beam, and the arms go past parallel? Then when the suspension compresses, the wheel goes up, and forward, and the car rides like shit. Then when you keep the arms at stock ride height with dropped spindles, the wheel goes up, and rearward, and doesn't ride like shit.
Same thing with the rear. When the power is applied to the car lowered with the springplates past parallel the wheels are lifted forward under acelleration, where the car with the plates down from parallel drives the wheel down, and forward. I guess all the race cars that run raised torsions are for looks? |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17541
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 2:35 am Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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Drop plates on an IRS car are a complete FRAUD!
They do absolutely nothing to the ride quality. At any ride height with stock plates or drop plates, the ride is identical.
The reason is because the spring plate is just a connection link between the torsion bar and the axle centerline. The shape of the connection link has ZERO effect on the ride quality.
| gprudenciop wrote: |
| ..... with atomworks plates.the ride is great and is ALOT better than my notched plates at the same 3 inch drop. . |
The ride quality is no different than if you had stock plates lowered the same amount. Likely the difference you noticed is the result of you spending $$$ and "wanting" it to be better. Any difference is all in your mind.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Bashr52
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2006
Posts: 5667
Location: On an island in VA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:35 am Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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I'm not trying to get back into the same argument that went on for pages and pages on the atomwerks thread...
I don't want to turn and notch my spring plates. I just want to install them at the stock angle, maintain the same amount of travel, yet have the lowered stance.
I know there was some discussion a while back about whether the spring plates were made from spring steel or not, and therefore were able to be welded safely? |
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Ace
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2003
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 4:51 am Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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| The point is that if you lower, you will never have that stock angle unless you raise the torsion housing. Let's clarify this. Maybe Bashr is trying to put his IRS car on the ground and needs to have the hard stops on the rear suspension changed to get lower. |
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Bashr52
Samba Member
Joined: July 16, 2006
Posts: 5667
Location: On an island in VA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:12 am Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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My car is a 69 with dual spring plates. Due to the compatibility of single vs dual, from what I see it will not be as easy as swapping spring plates around. I guess you can go dual plates from single, but not the other way around?
Since this is a low budget project and I'm only going 2 inches lower, I will likely just turn the spring plates, notch accordingly, and flip the arms if necessary to eliminate any negative camber. I did this on my Thing and it worked out well. |
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mcmscott
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4917
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:32 am Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
What does a 400hp Import have in common with a 120hp VW?
13 second time slips.....  |
Good one!
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There are no stupid questions, only stupid people,
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23950
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:50 am Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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| agnist the bottom stops? what a racquet that makes going down the road. you could also weld the plates solid to the lower or upper stop so it,s like a funny car......yup thats it a funny car. and add a hinge to the dog leg so you can adjust the camber and then weld it too. |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17541
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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| Bashr52 wrote: |
| I don't want to turn and notch my spring plates. |
Notching IRS spring plates is never necessary. The spring plate never hits the torsion housing. Even if you took the rubber bumper off the TA, the spring plate doesn't hit the torsion housing. The TA hits the shock tower with no bumper.
| Bashr52 wrote: |
| I just want to install them at the stock angle, |
The stock angle is the line from the center of the torsion bar to the center of the axle. If you want to lower, you have to change this angle. The shape of the solid spring plate has no effect on this angle.
| Bashr52 wrote: |
| maintain the same amount of travel, |
The travel depends on the TA. If you lower it by any method (stock or bent spring plates), you get less bump travel. IOW, the rubber bumper gets closer to the shock tower when you lower the car. Spring plates have nothing to do with this.
You can install Type 3 front bumpers on your TAs, they are shorter so you get a bit more travel before the bumper hits. Or you can just cut an inch off your existing ones.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17541
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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| Bashr52 wrote: |
| Since this is a low budget project and I'm only going 2 inches lower, I will likely just turn the spring plates, notch accordingly, |
You won't need to notch anything. That's for the severely lowered swing axle guys.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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More pointless BS with the BS drop plate scam.
Scott, trust me, I went the rounds with this hocus pocus a while ago. They aren't going to listen. And it's obvious he has no idea who you are and what your history with the VW scene is.
Like you say, it's making someone money, and some people are more than happy to part with it.
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Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
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Ace
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2003
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 7:59 pm Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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Just to be devils advocate and polute Bashr's thread even more, there is a torsional twist to a springplate on a swingaxle. It does affect the spring rate the more the springplate is torsionally twisted, especially on lowered vehicles. So, theoretically, the more resistant to this torsional twisting, the greater the overall springrate. So, notched, dropped plates and even those thick old adjustable springplates would have a noticable difference in springrate the further past parallel arc when that springplate is forced to the arc of the axle.
As for Bashr, just reindex and cut a little off the bumpstops. |
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Mrs Atomwerk
Samba Member
Joined: February 17, 2015
Posts: 4
Location: VENETA
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| Posted: Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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| Bruce wrote: |
Drop plates on an IRS car are a complete FRAUD!
They do absolutely nothing to the ride quality. At any ride height with stock plates or drop plates, the ride is identical.
The reason is because the spring plate is just a connection link between the torsion bar and the axle centerline. The shape of the connection link has ZERO effect on the ride quality.
| gprudenciop wrote: |
| ..... with atomworks plates.the ride is great and is ALOT better than my notched plates at the same 3 inch drop. . |
The ride quality is no different than if you had stock plates lowered the same amount. Likely the difference you noticed is the result of you spending $$$ and "wanting" it to be better. Any difference is all in your mind. |
Look at the new world record that the legendary Darrell Vittone broke on the fraudulent drop plates of Atomwerk Engineering - two times!!! This time was 151.4 MPH at the Mojave Mile. Over rugged and cracked and tar filled terrain.
Why not ask him? Or is it all in his mind?
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madmike
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 5298
Location: Atlanta,Michigan
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:33 am Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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Ace
Samba Member
Joined: July 07, 2003
Posts: 1903
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:16 am Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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| Mrs Atomwerk wrote: |
| Bruce wrote: |
Drop plates on an IRS car are a complete FRAUD!
They do absolutely nothing to the ride quality. At any ride height with stock plates or drop plates, the ride is identical.
The reason is because the spring plate is just a connection link between the torsion bar and the axle centerline. The shape of the connection link has ZERO effect on the ride quality.
| gprudenciop wrote: |
| ..... with atomworks plates.the ride is great and is ALOT better than my notched plates at the same 3 inch drop. . |
The ride quality is no different than if you had stock plates lowered the same amount. Likely the difference you noticed is the result of you spending $$$ and "wanting" it to be better. Any difference is all in your mind. |
Look at the new world record that the legendary Darrell Vittone broke on the fraudulent drop plates of Atomwerk Engineering - two times!!! This time was 151.4 MPH at the Mojave Mile. Over rugged and cracked and tar filled terrain.
Why not ask him? Or is it all in his mind?
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I suspect that Huge turbo engine may have helped too. By the way, there is another thread you should be commenting in too since we are talking of fraud.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=588535&highlight= |
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Eaallred
Samba Member
Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 12:23 pm Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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I just read something about not paying employee's, pulling a gun on said employee when he came to get paid, and then getting paid with a check that had no money in the account.
Search Facebook for Atomworks Engineering, it's there. Holey cow, I knew his product was a fraud from day one, but never suspected he was this much of a low life.
That feedback thread is insane as well.
Can't say I didn't warn anyone years ago, unfortunately.
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Eric Allred
You have to remember something: Everybody pities the weak; Jealousy you have to earn. |
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17541
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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| Mrs Atomwerk wrote: |
| .......... on the fraudulent drop plates of Atomwerk Engineering - |
At least we agree on something.
_________________
| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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58Dub
Samba Member
Joined: June 02, 2004
Posts: 1713
Location: Davison, MI
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:40 pm Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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Im not an expert or an engineer, but isnt the basic idea of the dropped spring plate basically the same as what Porsche used on some of their stuff?
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 27467
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 4:38 pm Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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| Bashr52 wrote: |
I want the torsion bars to be fully pre-tensioned against the lower stops vs turning the bars and letting them settle in where they want to support the car. As Brian said, the idea is to maintain standard ride and suspension travel with the lowered stance. |
The car hitting the droop stop while you are driving is not desirable, unless you are jumping it The jolt can cause a sudden loss of traction and make you spin. If it is rolling too much use a roll bar, if the problem is dive/squat due to breaking and acceleration then the cure is stronger springs.
you should have a droop stop, which should hit before you shock fully extends. basically, you have to consider shocks and stops together. If you want full suspension travel and yet lower first off you will find that is impossible, as the CV joints must be limited to 12 degrees. First CVs, THEn shocks, THEn stops, no other order makes sense.
If you need any help with actual real things please let us know.
For Imaginary problems, instead fix the source of the problem first before working on the car. |
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woodoctr
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Posts: 254
Location: Ohio
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Bruce
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2003
Posts: 17541
Location: Left coast, Canada
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| Posted: Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:48 pm Post subject: Re: IRS drop plates |
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| 58Dub wrote: |
Im not an expert or an engineer, but isnt the basic idea of the dropped spring plate basically the same as what Porsche used on some of their stuff?
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No, not even close.
It's hard to tell what's going on with that design. The top rod seems to have a heim joint on the left end. This creates a pivot point that the stock suspension doesn't have. Is there a pivot on the right side of the curved part that goes over top of the torsion bar? It also appears to have another heim joint at the left side of the adjustable link at the bottom. Another pivot point. Those two rods may be to simply alter camber or toe quickly at the track.
When you add pivot points, you change the way the suspension articulates.
The Atomwerk bent spring plates don't add or change any of the pivot points, so they alter nothing. Claims of miraculous improvement in ride quality are false. Any ride quality will be exactly the same as stock. Or minutely worse since the Atomwerk spring plates are heavier.
There are two possible things going on in Charles' mind.
One is that he knows his spring plates do none of what he claims, and that he also knows he can baffle the layman with false engineering bullshit in order to sell his product.
The second is that even though he went to engineering school, he should have received a failing grade due to his complete lack of understanding of simple first year mechanics. Note, when I say "mechanics", it means the study of mechanisms.
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| overheard at the portland Swap Meet... wrote: |
| ..... a steering wheel made from a mastadon tusk..... |
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