| Author |
Message |
perello
Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2005
Posts: 887
Location: where social security comes for free
|
 Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 1:24 am Post subject: 36hp oil coolers |
 |
|
Hi
Trying to finish my okrasa setup, was wondering whether a standard oil cooler was used at the time or is worth installing an aluminum one (6mm studs) ...
any opinions? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
oval56
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2003
Posts: 1309
Location: oktoberfest maintown
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
if you have an origianl one in aluminium use them, but do not use a 356 one, wich down sizes the temperature on oil, but raises the heattemperature 
_________________
www.oval56.com
1956 Oval, 2364ccm typ4
1957 Oval Ragtop 1584ccm singel port modified
1950 Hebmüller, 1584ccm okrasa modified
DBK Germany!!!!!!!!!!
www.dbkvw.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
52HoffmanSplit
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Lamorinda CA
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| oval56 wrote: |
| if you have an origianl one in aluminium use them, but do not use a 356 one, wich down sizes the temperature on oil, but raises the heattemperature |
Ok.. maybe its a language barrier.. or ?? "Down sizes the temperature on oil" what does that mean? Reduces the Temperature? Ive always used 356 Oil Coolers on 36hp engines and they do INDEED reduce the oil temperature over stock oil coolers. Explain please?
_________________
DB
11/1966 Porsche 912
7/1968 Type 265 Double Cab
4/1955 Type 117 - 3 Fold |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oval56
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2003
Posts: 1309
Location: oktoberfest maintown
|
| Posted: Thu Oct 23, 2008 9:29 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| 52HoffmanSplit wrote: |
| oval56 wrote: |
| if you have an origianl one in aluminium use them, but do not use a 356 one, wich down sizes the temperature on oil, but raises the heattemperature |
Ok.. maybe its a language barrier.. or ?? "Down sizes the temperature on oil" what does that mean? Reduces the Temperature? Ive always used 356 Oil Coolers on 36hp engines and they do INDEED reduce the oil temperature over stock oil coolers. Explain please? |
yes you are right, the oiltemperature will go down but the 356 oilcooler block the aircirculation in the fan shroud...so the cylinderheadtemperature rises! - overheatproblem on cylinder 3 /4
i do hat the problem on my second 57...
90°C oiltemp up tu 100°C at strong longtime runs... but an overheatproblem on cylinder3 with damage on only the head
after changeing to an standard vw cooler, oiltemp goes up to 100-110 deg
but no damages on my valves and head..
same topic discussed in pre67vw.co.uk some weeks ago, with same result
_________________
www.oval56.com
1956 Oval, 2364ccm typ4
1957 Oval Ragtop 1584ccm singel port modified
1950 Hebmüller, 1584ccm okrasa modified
DBK Germany!!!!!!!!!!
www.dbkvw.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
perello
Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2005
Posts: 887
Location: where social security comes for free
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 3:14 am Post subject: |
|
|
thank guys, this is becoming very informative 
_________________
Aug '58 pressed bumper SO23
1974 German Thing
1978 Bug 1200 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gimmesomeshelter
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2004
Posts: 1466
Location: San Carlos, CA
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EverettB 
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 71500
Location: Phoenix 602
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
joe h.
Samba Member
Joined: September 04, 2005
Posts: 782
Location: Seattle, Wa
|
| Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2008 11:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: |
| I remembered I found this Behr oil cooler a while back |
Yeah, that's what I ended up buying. They seem smaller than the one pictured above. Perhaps the best of both worlds (oil temp and head temp) or should I just stay stock? 
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Braukuche
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11199
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| joe h. wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I remembered I found this Behr oil cooler a while back |
Yeah, that's what I ended up buying. They seem smaller than the one pictured above. Perhaps the best of both worlds (oil temp and head temp) or should I just stay stock?
|
I will further complicate the issue by adding that I have two coolers, one a Porsche A cooler, steel with the mounting tab, and a VW one with a similar profile, it has a rounded top but no mounting tab. Is the round top VW one for an earlier model? Which is the best cooler to use?
--Dan |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
perello
Samba Member
Joined: April 15, 2005
Posts: 887
Location: where social security comes for free
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
actually I am after a Behr unit...but before taking the steep price I wanted to know if it is worth it.....
_________________
Aug '58 pressed bumper SO23
1974 German Thing
1978 Bug 1200 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
52HoffmanSplit
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Lamorinda CA
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 7:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Im not buying into Oval56's statements about NOT using a Porsche Alluminum Oil cooler and its drawbacks. A single word of mouth case is not technical data, his burn out of 3/4 could have been caused by many other things.
My brother (volksworker) and myself have successfully used the Porsche Alluminum oil cooler in 36hp engines since the mid-80's with 100% success and no 3/4 overheating problems.. and this is in the desert of Arizona!! I daily drove a 57 Oval Rag (even more engine heat in open ragtops)... 40hp Big Bore, with a Porsche Oil Cooler in Phoenix, thoughout the summers for 5 years and when you got done with long trips the engine was cool as a cucumber.
I think more discussion is warranted, Oval56's Opinion being taken into consideration... but his single failure is insufficient data to keep people from installing a period modification that has been happening since the 60's.... My opinion is that, if a Porsche Oil Cooler REALLY had that effect, it wouldnt be so ingrained in VW folkslore that they do such a great job, and that they were STILL so valuable at VW swapmeets/ebay etc. Severe failures would be constant... but that just hasnt happened.
_________________
DB
11/1966 Porsche 912
7/1968 Type 265 Double Cab
4/1955 Type 117 - 3 Fold |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
EverettB
Administrator
Joined: April 11, 2000
Posts: 71500
Location: Phoenix 602
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:07 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Braukuche wrote: |
| I have two coolers, one a Porsche A cooler, steel with the mounting tab, and a VW one with a similar profile, it has a rounded top but no mounting tab. Is the round top VW one for an earlier model? |
The rounded top one is 25hp/early 36hp, if I remember correctly.
_________________
How to Post Photos
Everett Barnes - [email protected] | My wanted ads
"Water is the only drink for a wise man" | "Communication prevents complaints"
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oval56
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2003
Posts: 1309
Location: oktoberfest maintown
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 9:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
| 52HoffmanSplit wrote: |
Im not buying into Oval56's statements about NOT using a Porsche Alluminum Oil cooler and its drawbacks. A single word of mouth case is not technical data, his burn out of 3/4 could have been caused by many other things.
My brother (volksworker) and myself have successfully used the Porsche Alluminum oil cooler in 36hp engines since the mid-80's with 100% success and no 3/4 overheating problems.. and this is in the desert of Arizona!! I daily drove a 57 Oval Rag (even more engine heat in open ragtops)... 40hp Big Bore, with a Porsche Oil Cooler in Phoenix, thoughout the summers for 5 years and when you got done with long trips the engine was cool as a cucumber.
I think more discussion is warranted, Oval56's Opinion being taken into consideration... but his single failure is insufficient data to keep people from installing a period modification that has been happening since the 60's.... My opinion is that, if a Porsche Oil Cooler REALLY had that effect, it wouldnt be so ingrained in VW folkslore that they do such a great job, and that they were STILL so valuable at VW swapmeets/ebay etc. Severe failures would be constant... but that just hasnt happened. |
okay, the other way, 8000km with 356 oilcooler- before complete rebuilt engine AND heads, ignition 8° static, mainjet driven on dyno...., 8,5:1 compression ratio
8000km, problems on third cylinder..
after rebuild the head again, 18000km, no problem with any valve or head..
i do not say that the cooler of a 356 is a bad thing, but in my case , the airstream is lower becaus the surface of the 356 cooler is bigger than a stock cooler
if i would do it again, i would modifiy a stock fanshroud with a dog house shroud, and would use the adapter tu us a 356 cooler (356B or 912 type) in a doghous conversion...
and here the discussion in a other forum: http://forums.pre67vw.com/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=16265
_________________
www.oval56.com
1956 Oval, 2364ccm typ4
1957 Oval Ragtop 1584ccm singel port modified
1950 Hebmüller, 1584ccm okrasa modified
DBK Germany!!!!!!!!!!
www.dbkvw.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
52HoffmanSplit
Samba Member
Joined: April 07, 2006
Posts: 1276
Location: Lamorinda CA
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
| oval56 wrote: |
| ...., 8,5:1 compression ratio |
ahh 8.5:1 Compression when a Stock 36hp is supposed to be 6.6:1?? You dont think that had anything to do with your car running hot?
For 45 years... American VW afficianados have used Porsche 356 Coolers on their engines to good effect.. there exists no information except your post that says it is a bad idea.... so.... try not to be so alarmist in your posts, yours is one experience... and frankly I think I just found out why yours ran hot.
All my cars are Bone Stock 25hp and 36hp running the exact compression ratio they should be (well, I did boost my 36hp to 7:1). In that situation... the Porsche Cooler works... wonders.
NUFF SAID
_________________
DB
11/1966 Porsche 912
7/1968 Type 265 Double Cab
4/1955 Type 117 - 3 Fold
Last edited by 52HoffmanSplit on Sat Oct 25, 2008 12:26 pm; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
oval56
Samba Member
Joined: July 21, 2003
Posts: 1309
Location: oktoberfest maintown
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| 52HoffmanSplit wrote: |
| oval56 wrote: |
| ...., 8,5:1 compression ratio |
ahh 8.5:1 Compression when a Stock 36hp is supposed to be 6.6:1?? You dont think that had anything to do with your car running hot?
For 45 years... American VW afficianados have used Porsche 356 Coolers on their ebgines to good effect.. there exists no information except your post that says it is a bad idea.... so.... try not to be so alarmist in your posts, yours is one experience... and frankly I think I just found out why yours ran hot.
All my cars are Bone Stock 25hp and 36hp running the exact compression ratio they should be (well, I did boost my 36hp to 7:1). In that situation... the Porsche Cooler works... wonders. |
sorry sir for shareing my experiences....
and to point out my view:
-original engine, original cooler or if i do not drive faster because of the fact of cooler oiltemp, use a 356 cooler
-upgraded 36hp stock cooler or external system
and last but not least:"You would think fitting the more efficient 912/356 Cooler would be a simple fix. Yes they do physically fit with a little tapping of the top of the fanshroud as they are slightly taller.
The thing is because they channel away more heat, whilst they lower oil temperatures, they also raise head temperatures for two reasons. The first because as I say they channel more heat away but blow this over number 3 cylinder and they cast a larger "shadow" than the stock cooler which has always been a problem with number 3.
" -> from pre67vw.co.uk
_________________
www.oval56.com
1956 Oval, 2364ccm typ4
1957 Oval Ragtop 1584ccm singel port modified
1950 Hebmüller, 1584ccm okrasa modified
DBK Germany!!!!!!!!!!
www.dbkvw.com |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Bengt H
Samba Member
Joined: September 11, 2005
Posts: 334
Location: Sweden
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 26, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| I dont know if this ad any info but I use a Behr oilcooler (as seen in Everetts pics) on my1620 Okrasa with 8,5 comp. It has a very low oiltemp and when I meassure the temp on the heads with a infa red instrument its the same temp on both heads. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thefladge
Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2005
Posts: 1294
Location: Anaheim, CA
|
| Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 8:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
If there was a problem with the 356 / 912 cooler restricting air flow, wouldn't we hear stories of high cylinder head temps and burned valves in Porsches?
_________________
1957 Vintage Baja Bug.
2110cc engine, 40 IDF Webers on Gene Berg manifolds, Engle 110 cam, Bugpack 40×35.5 Street Pro Heads, W8CC plugs, 12.5 pound Flywheel, Kennedy 1700 pound pressure plate. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Braukuche
Samba Member
Joined: September 03, 2004
Posts: 11199
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 7:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
| thefladge wrote: |
| If there was a problem with the 356 / 912 cooler restricting air flow, wouldn't we hear stories of high cylinder head temps and burned valves in Porsches? |
Since the 356 and 912 used the same shroud and I believe fan I would agree it would seem to pose a problem for those carsd as well, if there actually is a problem.
_________________
Go Reds! Smash state!
Retirement is here!
1960 double cab
1960 Baja Bug
1963 stretched double cab
1962 Golde sunroof Ghia
1963 356 B coupe
1963 Notchback
1967 21 window less rusty now
1989 Westfalia |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
thefladge
Samba Member
Joined: July 25, 2005
Posts: 1294
Location: Anaheim, CA
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2011 9:23 am Post subject: |
|
|
I ran a 912 oil cooler on a 2084cc VW engine for many years and never had a problem with high cylinder head temps.
I wonder if there is a real scientific way to measure the flow of air through various oil coolers.
_________________
1957 Vintage Baja Bug.
2110cc engine, 40 IDF Webers on Gene Berg manifolds, Engle 110 cam, Bugpack 40×35.5 Street Pro Heads, W8CC plugs, 12.5 pound Flywheel, Kennedy 1700 pound pressure plate. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gimmesomeshelter
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2004
Posts: 1466
Location: San Carlos, CA
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 3:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hello-
You might want to contact William Genevro at Aiflow Systems (http://www.airflow-systems.com/oilcooler.html). His day job is designing oil coolers for aircraft. He's also a 912 owner who wanted a high quality oil cooler that would provide more air to cylinders 3 & 4, so he designed one himself.
Cheers,
Paul
_________________
"I would rather have questions that can't be answered than answers that can't be questioned."
Richard Feynman |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
