009, new bus owner

[dembus]

Oh, and could someone please splain this "009 distributor stuff" to a new Bus owner? Thanks!!

[gratefulbuses]

You should try an advance search on the this subject! You'll find a whole lot of material to look threw! Best of luck!
Gratefully,
67 Westy
67 Bug
69 Westy
Boone, NC

"Atleast I'm enjoying the ride!"

[TeamSpatula]

in a nutshell, it's the last 3 digits of the part number of a popular replacement distributor, that was very hyped up as being the "best" replacement model...most agree that it's definitely NOT a good replacement...
_________________
<---Air Cooled Search & Rescue Team - STICKERS & T-shirts for sale!
1981 Diesel Rabbit
I NEED A CAMPER!!!! (1971 is ideal but will consider other years)
http://www.TeamSpatula.com

[keifernet]

[ratwell]

[VWBusrepairman]

It's the number of the distributor used by shadetree mechanic as a cure all for various volkswagen symptoms such as, poor acceleration, timing issues, dead spot in accelerator, etc...
for best results, the vacuum advance is your best distributor to use in a bus application. Good luck and thanks for logging on!

[steve74baywin]

Deal with 009 and buses vs bugs....
009 mechanically advances timing only 28 deg or so...
In a bug that isn't too bad, Type 1 motors will do okay with that except for flat spots, but if you have a heavy foot that is okay....
With a bus, Type 4 motor, the stock distributor w/mech and vac advance would advance the timing about 35 deg or so.
So, there are many times your timing isn't getting advanced as much as it should or could....This equals performance drops and mpg drops..

To add to what Ratwell "If you had an industrial vw engine that ran at one rpm all day long the 009 would be perfect for it."
Mech only advance dist only advances timing based upon RPM's of engine,
if your trying to accelerate up a hill, your depressing gas pedal more per given RPM's and more or less advance would be nice, but dist don't know this cause it advance by RPM's only, with a vacuum advance distributor it detects the increase/decrease via the vacuum created by the air going thru carb, etc
_________________
Steve

[hambone]

It's not a bad distributor for a type1 engine, reliable, does the job. I've never had trouble with one in all my years of Volksing....
That flat spot is somewhat annoying, but I think all the negativity directed at that sucka is a little harsh. It's inexpensive and durable, kind of the whole philosophy of an air cooled VW to begin with.
Just my opinion anyway. You guys seem a lot more technical than me, I just want a simple, reliable bus to take me to Saturn and back.

[dembus]

My bus came with some spare parts including a distributor. I'll take a closer look at it to see if its an 009. Thanks alot for the tips.

[jolo]

I'm certainly not arguing here, just wondering. (Being an armchair engineer, I do that a lot).

I know John Muir is widely faulted for his praise of the 009, but he makes a point about the "principal is all wrong" for vacuum advance distributors.

Why is it that you want to advance the timing for load instead of just rpm? My understanding is that the whole reason for advance at all, is that when the motor is turning faster, you have start the burning of the fuel earlier, so that it has time to burn completely before the next stroke begins. So if you advance the timing under load, but before the rpms climb, aren't you just going to cause detination?

I know this is wrong in practice (or there's enough of a consensus on the topic that I'll take it on faith), but can someone explain why?

[Schmooey]

Muir didn't praise the 009 for all ACVWs. In fact, he recommends the stock unit for later models, but it is overshadowed by some earlier items in the book extolling the 009. If you look carefully you can find these remarks in later editions.
I found the stock distributor a bit smoother than the 009 at low speeds, but was really impressed by cooler engine temps.

The need for advance isn't just based on RPM, but on load, carburation and many other factors. I always wondered why VW never used CV carbs such as the Bing, Keihin, SU or Stromberg designs to adapt intake to engine demand. I'm a bit of a shadetree engineer myself.

[jolo]

I'm pretty sure he only reccomends the stock dizzy for the tyeIVs and anything with FI.

Still very curious about load vs rpm advance, though.

[Schmooey]

I believe Muir recommended vacuum for 1600dps and later.
I'll check my book later. I'm using the 50th anniversary edition.

When I push start my bus, the effort to get it rolling isn't linear. It takes most of my effort to overcome the inertia and rolling resistance. Most engines have a power curve that arcs to a plateau. I'd guess the demands aren't equal along the curve for many reasons.

But then, I'm an idiot!

[VWBusrepairman]

[Schmooey]

35th. You're right.

[steve74baywin]

[jolo]

[VWBusrepairman]

[Schmooey]

Those constant vacuum carbs fed the engine based upon vacuum, and were very successful on motorcycles and British cars to improve mileage and performance. They were called CV carbs since they kept the venturi velocity more constant. The Bing CVs I had on my BMW MC were the best carbs I've used, and the Stromberg on my Triumph was very similar.
I always thought dual Bing CVs would be cool on a VW.

As far as the 009 issue, I used an 009 for about 10 years on my 67 bug and thought it was fine. After 10 years of 009 use on my 71 bus, the recent switch to an 009 has been an eye-opener. YMMV, etc.

Repairman,
It's sunny and warm here, and my wife took the bus to the park to read and nap in. I'm stuck at work pontificating about things I don't grasp well....

[Randy in Maine]

Also to note is that when Muir wrote the Idiot book, back in the dark ages of the late 60's, the 40 hp engines we were all driving had vacuum advance only distributors. They were a bit poochy. It also cost about $30 at that time to replace the vacuum cans and you could buy a brand new German made 009 for about $50 and they were kind of fun to have in a 62 gia or a 66 beetle or whatever and they actually ran pretty good (compared to the vacuum only distributor), but the heavier buses could rarely generate the quick revving engine speed required to get the most out of the 009.

Not perfect, but when you looked at what else was out there, they weren't bad. When the later models came out with the vacuum and centrifical advance, that made the engine a easier to drive and a better performing car, because of the increased total advance and that the advance curve came on when you really needed it.

Even in my 74 and 76 Idiot books, Muir states that 009s are not for type 4 engines or for fuel injected cars (which were mostly the 68+ type III and the later buses), but that has more to do with total engine advance int he type 4 and the timing curves for the FI I assume.

Enough of my dribble here, is the Bob Hoover rap from www.type2.com

Vacuum Advance VS Mechanical Advance
by Robert S. Hoover
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A vacuum advance distributor senses changes in the engine's LOAD -- and does so almost instantaneously. Mechanical advance distributors, which sense only changes in rpm, are meant for special purpose applications, such as as drag racing or poorly designed multi-carb set-ups.... or moving a loaded Type II with a 25hp engine.

If you try to use a purely mechanical advance distributor in your daily driver you will have to jack-up the output of the accelerator pump, since providing a jolt of raw gas is the only way you can bump up the rpms, which is the only way you can get the advance to kick in. But before the revs can build up you waste a lot of gas. This plays hell with your fuel economy and shortens your engine's useful life at the same time.

People who run mechanical advance distributors usually have no idea how well their Volkswagen can perform.

When you go back to a vacuum advance distributor you usually see a remarkable improvement in both performance and economy. The performance-change being the typical perception of an engine that is now suddenly more responsive than before. The improvment in economy comes about because you're no longer throwing away most of the accelerator pump's output each time you shift gears or pull away from a stop.

The fact John Muir.... and all the tits & ass VW magazines.... say the mechanical advance distributor is the best thing since canned beer is no reason to assume this is true. Muir advocates any number of things that are incorrect, including many that are detrimental to your vehicle.

I've written about the vacuum vs mechanical distributor situation many times but most people still don't get it. Volkswagen -- and all other auto makers -- use vacuum-advance (or vacuum/centrifugal) because for normal driving such distributors do a better job than a purely mechanical-advance device.

--Bob Hoover