Type I or Type IV

[Peepsalot]

I see there are many aftermarket engine kits available for the beetle. I'm wondering what the advantages of a Type I or Type IV would be. I read that the IV's have spin on oil filters and larger cooling fins for better cooling capacity. I guess the IV's can be made to have larger displacement too?
Would one or the other be better for turbocharging if I decide to go that route?
Of all the different displacement options available, these are just bored and stroked variations on either of just these two motor platfoms?
For example the engine kits sold on the gene berg site, what type are those even? I know Raby only does IV's now.

[Jake Raby]

Oh no....

We'll await Danimals return to bash the TIV in every way possible.

All I'll say is check out tuna's site at www.tunacan.net/t4 and read and then read ALL 3 of my sites top to bottom and make your own decision. If you decide to go TIV I can and will help given the opportunity and make the process very easy for you.

Now, we'll wait on dan...

In the mean time hang out at the Type4rum and my forum over on the STF and read, read, read.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

[Peepsalot]

What are the stock displacements of the two engines?

[Glenn]

[Jake Raby]

The smallest TIV was 100ccs bigger than the largest TI... The engine was designed with growth in mind, thats why we can drop in a stroker crank up to 78mm and most of the time never clearance the case!
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

[Peepsalot]

How much displacement can you get out of a T1 through boring and stroking?

[danimal]

what a bunch of flame-bait, lol.

peepsalot, this subject has been covered in agonizing detail, why don't you try doing a search before asking your question?

suffice it to say that you won't get an objective opinion on any of the websites listed so far in this thread... most people do not understand the role that head flow efficiency plays in engine operation.

most damning is the fact that you won't find any full sets of type 4 headflow files on either the tuna website, or the raby websites... ask yourself why that is.

however, i realize that it is kind of a moot point, if you don't understand things like exhaust to intake flow ratios in the first place.
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[Peepsalot]

[Jake Raby]

For once I'm gonna make a post that has no point-

Nice to see ya dan, we knew you could not resist this one!

You know I have noticed something... In *most* TIV Vs. TI threads the thread ALWAYS puts the TIV portion of the subject first and foremost- thats where it should be as a pure illustration of superiority!
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

[tuna]

You may have gotten the impression that I'm blind to the assets of the Type 1 when it's compared to the Type 1. That's so far from the truth.

Do I have Type 1 projects? Yes, including a 90.5x78(2006cc) and an 88x74 (1800cc). Both of these engines will be drag racing oriented street engines, but I know their limitations. I've also got a 88x69(1679cc) next in line with a lot of vintage old speed parts for my 1970 EMPI Imp. They can be very powerful and very reliable, if built right, with the right parts.

So why am I into the Type 4? Because I know the weaknesses of the Type 1 and I recognize that the Type 4 was VW's attempt to correct that. Aluminum alloy case, through-bolts for the main bearings, increased oil capacity, five bolt f/w to crank mounting, increased cylinder head fins, and the list goes on.

The broad torque curve of the Type 4 engine is one of the appealing features of the Type 4. Being able to drive a mild engine and having tons of torque in a daily driver is what I am after, along with more horsepower. I'm not looking to race the local boys; they can fight amongst themselves to see who's got the "fastest" engine. I want to get to work each day, to the store, and to the VW shows, all without having to worry about my engine.

Another reason I provide my web site is that it's an exciting new area of development. To me, the average street Type 1 is commonplace. There's a lot of area to explore when it comes to the Type 4. The wasserboxer is another engine that intrigues me, but I'm not a watercooled type of guy.

It all depends on what you want from your car. I build my cars to drive and to enjoy. For that, I want a Type 4. If I want to drag race, I'd build a Type 1. Pick the right tool for the job.

Tuna
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The VDub Geek
Type 4: Secrets Revealed

1969 Bug - 2056cc Type 4 Cal-Look

[73notch]

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=123580
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=124197
theres a ton of em, and these are only a couple pages old.
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SubyNotch.com is back up!

[Jake Raby]

The Type IV is not for everyone... But it is the engine of choice for more and more people everyday that do their homework and don't care about winning drag races as a sole objective.

You'll note that those who slam the TIV have no first hand experience with the engine or the conversion and have never driven a TIV powered vehicle, especially one configured for a TI application specifically.

Those that do the conversion don't go back. Out of the thousands of people I have talked to and chatted with I have yet to find even one person that went back to TI power after experiencing the TIV- as you search you'll see the same thing, so watch for it.
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Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

[oicdn]

The only thing I can see that detracts from doing the TIV in a Bug (Aside from cost) is the homologation of parts. Beetle tranny, with Bus Flywheel and pressure plate/clutch. Type 4 engine, but not an upright cooling shroud....

Although it might seem less disorienting when you actually have one...I think the initial variation of parts from different vehicles can be overwhelming.

I'm almost positive on going Type 4...but when I see the Nickies Cyl, small displacement motors, larger sump and a turbo, you get the nearly the same reliability...like a 1776 turbo...nice HP....reliability and ALL type 1 parts.....makes you kinda wanna go that route....
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[danimal]

peepsalot, just don't let people who sell type 4 parts blow smoke up your ass

if you read a. graham bell, you'll probably know more about engine theory than the rest of the people in this thread... his "forced induction performance tuning" is a great read, btw.

since you know engine theory, you'll be able to understand that any claims that type 4 torque is somehow superior to type 1 torque is not physically possible, since the type 4 head has a crippled exhaust port that ruins the e/i ratio.

type 4 motor builders try to compensate for that crap with camshaft designs that favor the exhaust side, which is of course further proof of the inferiority of the type 4 head design.

people who make bogus type 4 torque claims do not understand how to build torque into a type 1 motor... that's why they stepped down to type 4's in the first place.

i posted a full set of stock type 1 head flow numbers just the other day, so do a search for it... and then ask tuna and his type 4 friends why they are hiding the type 4 head flow numbers from the world... also see how many different type 4 camshaft specs you can find.
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[clearsurf2001]

[vwracerdave]

The type IV guys NEVER discuss price either.
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2017 Street Comp Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble, OK
2010 Sportsman ET Champion - Mid-America Dragway - Arkansas City, KS
1997 Sportsman ET Champion - Thunder Valley Raceway Park - Noble ,OK

[danimal]

[Jake Raby]

As for Tuna posting *opinion* with no factual information- I'll remind Dan thats exactly what he is doing. He is posting negative OPINION on a comparative subject that he has only experience with 50% of, and from what I have seen his FIRST HAND experience of that 50% (the TI engine) is very limited. I think that 90% of us here only post opinions, thats why its called a FORUM. Dan and his experience with the TIV conversion engine is about as extensive as his experience of being the Pilot of the Space Shuttle- He has no PROOF that a TI is any better than a TIV, its all opinion.

As for my experience with the TI- well I have successfully built one while wearing a blindfold over the period of two days at a car show in front of 500+ people and it ran for 5 minutes at WOT, built from used parts before the cam sheared in half- so I'd say I have TI experience, actually more TI experience than TIV!!!!! Dan, ever built an engine blindfolded from scratch??

Dan's TI flow numbers were from a stock head- thay are worthless..

As for the interchange of parts- a Bus flywheel does not have to be used. I have a 200mm conversion flywheel that uses a stock or KEP 200mm TI pressure plate and disc...

Dan, the TIV makes more torque than the TI just as a Big Block Chevy makes more Torque than a small block!

As for inferiority of ports being overcome with camshaft- Many new car manufacturers do the same... Look at how many modern engines use a symmetrical camshaft! Hell even look at a Cosworth engine if you want to compare ports to cams..

I have seen many TI cams with added intake duration and/or lift to make up for the crippled nature of the twisty, windy intake tract of a TI.... If nothing else the TIV makes more torque simply because the intake tract is a 100% straight shot into the valve- especially the 1.7 Q head.

about 3 weeks ago I finsihed a 2680cc engine for an SCCA Pro Rally customer that chose a porsche 912E for his Rally car.. The engine is limited to 9:1 CR because many times good fuel is not available in their remote locations of operation and due to the environmentalistr they can't run race gas, or leaded gas. This 9:1 2680 with stock casting TIV heads, relocated plugs and worked Vanagon exhaust ports made 200 lbs of torque at 3200 RPM and a max of 227 pounds at 4,000 RPM. HP was a mere 218.... In this Rally car torque was all that mattered- I will also add that this customer swapped from a 911 based Rally car to the 912 just so he could run the torque monster TIV engine, he sacrificed two cylinders to do so.

As for TIV guys never mentioning cost- well accomplishing the mission is the primary objective, and whatever that cost- it cost. If you don't want to spend it then keep playing with your toys.
_________________
Jake Raby
Raby Engine Development
www.rabyenginedevelopment.com
"I've never given anyone Hell, I just told them the truth and they thought it was Hell"

[Glenn]

I love a good fight.

Let's just keep it clean and to the facts.

No personal attacks or this topic is history... like some othe others.

Carry on.
_________________
Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"

Member #1009

#BlueSquare

עַם יִשְׂרָאֵל חַי

[EASY RIDER]

I don't know about the head flow numbers but I have a 2321cc type 4 with not all but many of the goodys. I have had a 1600cc type 1 and the difference is night and day. I have a 97' BMW 3281s and my bug makes it look like a KIA on the highway. Yeah, the bug is not the most stable car at 110 but at least I know I can drive at that speed all day long. The torque from a T4 is not even describable. Yeah you can say it pushes you in the seat and all that stuff but when you are driving up an 8% grade and someone tries to pass you you actually have a choise to let them around or make there engine over heat trying to get around you. I do have a Raby built engine and after my experiences with the engine and with Jake I would have no other engine in my car. If I could drop one in the BMW I would have done it already.

My wife is always telling me about the looks on the faces of the people we fly by on the interstate and especialy up hills. You know those long climbs that are about 4-5 miles long. Yes, the ones that you have to down shift at least once to get to the top of at a safe speed to keep someone from running over you with their big SUV. Well, on those big climbs I almost never do less than 90mph in 4th gear. If you live in Atlanta and don't know that this is possible I'll take you for a ride.

Mountain roads are all made flat when you have the power of a type 4. I can slow down to 35mph in 4th and give it gas going up ANY mountain. The engine pulls from 35 to 100 just as strong as if you were on flat ground and taking off from a dead stop in a standard beetle with a stock T1 engine. I have not found any car that would truly chalenge me on a hill climb. Now I'm not saying that they are not out there, they are, it's just no one wants to pass me after I shut them down at 100mph going up a long climb.

If you don't plan on driving your car then I would suggest getting a T1. A T4 engine in a car that does not see a lot of miles would be a waste as far as I am concerned. If you do a search for EASY RIDER over on the www.shoptalkfourums.com you can look up my posts about my experiences with my type 4 engine. As you can see I have a lot to say and would be willing to answer any questions you may have in regards to my engine or the process of getting one from Jake. No, I don't know about head flow numbers but I know what my car will do. With my Tangerine exhaust I have never had an issue with gettting the exhaust. Oh, I take that back. I did upset my inlaws when I blew a hole in thier pea gravel from the exhaust. If they did not want to have dirt showing from where I was warming up my car I suggested that they get more than 5 inches of gravel to cover the ground.

If you want more info on just what a T4 can do send me a PM over on the shoptalkfourms and I will contact you.

I regularly drive my car at 80mph for hundreds of miles at a time. I used to drive at a constant 90 but due to changing my career I don't have the funds to support a ticket. I have a Valentine 1 radar but my car does not like to slow down very fast and since my wife has been going out of town with me a lot lately I have a hard time holding 90 and her not saying something. I don't know why she does not feel safe?

Bert