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Mahle CIMA Piston Kits NOT Forged they are CAST
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kekonaiii
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PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2007 11:23 pm    Post subject: Mahle CIMA Piston Kits NOT Forged they are CAST Reply with quote

I have been getting TONS of e-mail from folks asking WHY there are other vendors selling FORGED pistons cheaper then our Forged kits and JE Kits as well as Wiseco Kits.. (They wanted to know why they should buy our Forged Kit versus the CIMA Mahle Kit because vendors are claiming CIMA to be forged) LOL Rolling Eyes

The Mahle CIMA kits that ANY and ALL vendors sell are NOT Forged. (Not trying to bash anyone just trying to educate, We all deserve to know the truth. We at AA have already tested the Mahle CIMA Pistons made for Air Cooled Vw's and they are a CAST Piston. This is known to anyone that knows about motor building.

So If someone List CIMA Mahle Pistons as Forged they are not discribing them properly. Forged pistons cost alot of money to make and there is NO WAY to make a FORGED Piston and them put them in a set of cylinders and sell them for 180.00.......
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mharney
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just so you know what Mahle has to say about it...

-----------8<------------

Mark,
This has been a popular question this week...
The kits we manufacture are equipped with either cast or forged pistons depending on the specific application. The kits with forged pistons, are true forgings. There are no pressure cast pistons we supply that I am aware of. If there are particular part numbers you are interested in, I can provide you with more detailed information.
Regards,
Eric Grilliot

MAHLE, Inc.
Aftermarket Engineering

5575 East Andrew Johnson Hwy, Morristown, TN 37815
Telephone: 423-318-3711, Fax: 423-318-3190
[email protected], http://www.us.mahle.com
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Glenn Premium Member
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rolling Eyes



sorry... i couldn't resist.
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

At one point I had read that the pistons were all spun-cast. Not real sure what that is but have a good idea. The M/C sets have been serving their purpose quite effectively...
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

you might be able to tell if they are forged or cast by looking at the non machined areas. I work with aluminum forgings and castings everyday and can tell just looking at them. by the way, we've found forgings to be more cost effective than castings.

anybody have a piston advertised as cast, one of the cheap "forged" pistons and a high quality forged piston? some pictures of the backsides might shed some light.
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kekonaiii
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mharney wrote:
Just so you know what Mahle has to say about it...

-----------8<------------

Mark,
This has been a popular question this week...
The kits we manufacture are equipped with either cast or forged pistons depending on the specific application. The kits with forged pistons, are true forgings. There are no pressure cast pistons we supply that I am aware of. If there are particular part numbers you are interested in, I can provide you with more detailed information.
Regards,
Eric Grilliot

MAHLE, Inc.
Aftermarket Engineering

5575 East Andrew Johnson Hwy, Morristown, TN 37815
Telephone: 423-318-3711, Fax: 423-318-3190
[email protected], http://www.us.mahle.com


You may have to dig deeper, like Brasil not TN....OR you may send them to a lab to actually have them tested. OR you could be specific Mahle makes Forged and Cast Pisotns for just about EVERY application out there. Also you could have been at the SEMA show where one of the Reps would have told you the same things. "yes our VW air cooled pistons are cast"... Wink
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kekonaiii
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
Rolling Eyes



sorry... i couldn't resist.



Laughing Glenn you know you're my boy!!!
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All I'm saying is what the Mahle rep said, and until one of them comes to me and tells me different and that this guy is lying, well, there it is. Their credibility beats yours by virtue of who they work for.

When you can get Mahle to come here and say the same thing you were told at SEMA, then things will be different. But you don't work for Mahle, and you don't represent them. I recommend you go back to them and get them to come out with it publically. Then you have something.

Now I know there is a distinct difference in a piston like Wiseco and Mahle, it's obvious, but the process they use is apparently something they call forging. The subject of my email to him referred specifically to VW Type 1.
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mharney
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kekonaiii wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Rolling Eyes



sorry... i couldn't resist.



Laughing Glenn you know you're my boy!!!


I think you've missed something.
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kekonaiii
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mharney wrote:
kekonaiii wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Rolling Eyes



sorry... i couldn't resist.



Laughing Glenn you know you're my boy!!!


I think you've missed something.


obviously I think you have... Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kekonaiii wrote:
mharney wrote:
kekonaiii wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Rolling Eyes



sorry... i couldn't resist.



Laughing Glenn you know you're my boy!!!


I think you've missed something.


obviously I think you have... Rolling Eyes


One thing I know about Kona is he rarely misses anything.

It's been a long time my friend. Wink
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kekonaiii
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mharney wrote:
All I'm saying is what the Mahle rep said, and until one of them comes to me and tells me different and that this guy is lying, well, there it is. Their credibility beats yours by virtue of who they work for.

When you can get Mahle to come here and say the same thing you were told at SEMA, then things will be different. But you don't work for Mahle, and you don't represent them. I recommend you go back to them and get them to come out with it publically. Then you have something.

Now I know there is a distinct difference in a piston like Wiseco and Mahle, it's obvious, but the process they use is apparently something they call forging. The subject of my email to him referred specifically to VW Type 1.




Oh ok you mean admit it like how they have been fooling you folks all these years. How many times did they ask Bill if he had sex with Monica?? Laughing

It's all good I have what I have and you have some desk boy telling you something that is suppose to hold water. We can sit here all day. I don't think you realize the depth of this issue and that is fine.
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Eaallred
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Either way, the Mahles are too thin in the tops and the wrist pin bosses to make a durable high HP motor. Forged or not, we all know they have thier limits.
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kekonaiii
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
kekonaiii wrote:
mharney wrote:
kekonaiii wrote:
Glenn wrote:
Rolling Eyes



sorry... i couldn't resist.



Laughing Glenn you know you're my boy!!!


I think you've missed something.


obviously I think you have... Rolling Eyes


One thing I know about Kona is he rarely misses anything.

It's been a long time my friend. Wink


Ok please infom me of what I missed dammit...Glenn says I didn't miss and harney says I did.
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mharney
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eaallred wrote:
Either way, the Mahles are too thin in the tops and the wrist pin bosses to make a durable high HP motor. Forged or not, we all know they have thier limits.


Agreed. My Wisecos show basically NOTHING after 18K miles. And they've seen a lot of abuse in those miles.

kekonaiii wrote:
It's all good I have what I have and you have some desk boy telling you something that is suppose to hold water. We can sit here all day. I don't think you realize the depth of this issue and that is fine.


If you say so. I'm glad you think it's fine.
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fiord
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kekonaiii
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I said what I said for the information of those who have asked me. Anyone that has been building motors for a long time most of them will tell you that they TOO know that the Mahles that are sold as forged 90.5, 92, and 94 are not Forged.. Contact Brasil and have them send you the actual content of air cooled pistons... Crying or Very sad
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:06 pm    Post subject: Mahle forged pistons Reply with quote

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=23752&highlight=mahle+pistons+forged

Here a link explaining the forged aluminum Mahle pistons. I've used several sets of their 90.5 forged pistons...they are bullet proof Very Happy
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vgajames
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow i have not been on here in a while and can't believe this came up again.John C. brought it up once..Do a search on the way back machine and ya might find it.Yes Mahle " Forged" pistons are forged.
Maybe Kekonaiii has some reson to want folks to buy his by saying they are not.They are no way the thick nice forged like some other high price brands but are "forged" and have been making us VW air-cooled performace guys happy for a long time.
I too wrote to Mahle and remember Mark Harney doing the same back then and we posted tons of info about it. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 9:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found the old post..its long but read on and you will become enlightend after a few pages.....
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=144582&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

vgajames wrote:
I have been following this thread and have waited to chime in until i had some facts to back me up.The Mahle "forged Piston" is a "forged" piston.
I wrote a letter to Mahle to get some facts and here is what they wrote back...
Info from:

Eric Grilliot

MAHLE, Inc.
Aftermarket Engineering

For the aircooled VW kits we import to the US, most are either cast or forged. I'm not aware of any pressure cast (or squeeze cast) pistons that we currently offer for these kits. The easiest way to distinguish between either configuration is in the numbers cast/pressed into the pistons themselves. Each piston will have a designation on the inside that identifies the raw casting (or forging).
This particular sample is for a 97mm aircooled Porsche. The casting number I refer to is 97P12. The 'P' indicates this piston is forged. Mahle uses the following "codes" to designate the raw castings:

P Forged piston
F Squeeze-cast piston
L Solid skirt cast piston
V Auto-Hydrothermik or Auto-Hydrothermatik cast piston (piston w/ cast-in steel struts)

As an example on one of the kits you mention, the 94mm bore/82mm stroke kit (PN K70481), the piston is machined from the 94P18 forging. If there are particular part numbers that are in questions, we would be glad to investigate each further to provide you the specific information for the application.


And he gave me his phone number so i called back and wanted more manufacturing info.He said he will get with the plant in Brizial and get some specifics on the process.We both agreed these are nothing like J&E,etc and are basically a replacement piston.They do hold up very well for most ACVW applications.On a all out drag motor,no not probably a good choice.I will pass on more info when i get it.Also he mentioned he has got many emails recently about this very subject. Shocked
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