Lifted 2WD...upper control arm issue/question

[snoop]

Very pleased with lift...syncro.org springs + spring caps = 18.75" at all 4 corners. No more crunching fender wells when tooling around off-road and the increased spring coefficient more than compensates for the higher center of gravity in turns. Pretty much good squared performance-wise.

However, a post alignment issue has presented itself: unable to achieve proper camber. Should be at ~ 0 (+/- 30'), best achievable now is - 60', so I'm out by 1 degree. Can expect some amount of accelerated inner tire wear/increased frequency of tire rotating/purchasing. A related issue is that upper BJs are at a bit of an angle...can expect some level of increased replacement frequency.

So here's what my overnight brainstorm came up with:

1. Replace upper control arms with syncro upper control arms.

2. Salvage a pair of 2WD upper control arms, cut 'em, weld e'm back up with ~3/8" gap bridged with steel plates top and bottom.

3. Lower the rig some.

4. Don't worry about it. Drive it. Love it. Live with it. Just accept higher maintenance intervals/cost.

Don't know if syncro arms will mate up with the 2WD pillar. If they do, they aught to have enough length to facilitate proper camber/BJ alignment. Big IF is do they fit? Anyone know?

Pretty sure that option 2 would work. Leaning strongly this way.

Regarding option 3, having already achieved and exceeded what I consider the appropriate requisite level of masochistic investment in the lifting of the rig (spring compressors have a very high masochistic quotient), I'm reluctant to entertain this option.

There aren't any performance negatives to option 4, just relatively minor maintenance ones, so it's my current operating mode pending investigation of options 1 and 2.

So...what say the Sambanistas? What would you do?
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87 Westy Camper

[kayakwesty]

my 2 cents

live with it, it's only one degree, and once your springs start to sag from "father time", the problem might take care of itself

to me it would be a lot more work vs. bang for the buck.

like I said...my 2 cents
_________________
1984 Westy 2.0 Jetta ABA Motor/1.8 head converted to auto tranny, with 180,000 on body, 55K on engine and transmission

B.5.5 Passat Wagen with 30v V6-67000 Miles

DAS AUTO

CHANGE YOUR FUEL LINES!

A post without pictures is useless

http://www.kayakwesty.com

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[[email protected]]

What spring caps did you use? How thick?

I have the syncro.org springs and LT215-75R15 BFGs. When loaded down and turning, rub on the front fender lips. Not really a rub, more of an oh crap....

[tikibus]

The first castle I built fell over and sank into the swamp. SOOO, I built a second castle and that fell over, burned and sank into the swamp.

SOOO, I built a third castle, and here she is. The strongest castle in the land. One day lad, one day all this will be yours.

What? the curtains?
_________________
Happy Trails!
Mark
______________
Founding member of the Empire State VW Camping Club.
http://www.empirevwcamping.org/
1984 Westy - Tiki
1997 Honda Civic -The Green Hornet
1971 Volvo P-1800E- needs TLC

[psych-illogical]

I think I'd live with it. Haven't a clue about the Syncro control arms. If indeed you do find out they'll fit, then I'd go with that.

BTW, any photos?
_________________
83 1/2 Westy waterboxer
'57 Beetle-sold
Coupla '81 BMW motorcycles (R80G/S; R100RS)
'96 BMW R1100GS

[TSR53]

I just did a parts look-up compairison from www.vagcat.com. Looks like all the parts are the same with the exception of the "C" for the upper control arm on the syncro. My bet is that the syncro top arm will work and provide the extra camber you (and I'm thinking of doing this mod too!) will need.

Once my Vanco 8s wear out (never right?) I plan to run Mercedes Benz 7x16" ET 37 steel rims with Hakki CS 205/65-16s with a load index of 102 and these lifted 2WD springs, syncro wannabees we are...

1991 2WD
251407047B Track control arm upper
251407047B Track control arm / for vehicle with payload of upper 1,2T / 245-256: M325
251407053A Cheese head bolt M12X1,5X105
251407077 Bonded rubber mounting
251407133A Eccentric washer
251407361 Guide joint upper


1991 syncro
251407047C Track control arm upper
251407053A Cheese head bolt M12X1,5X105
251407077 Bonded rubber mounting
251407133A Eccentric washer
251407361 Guide joint upper

[TSR53]

Let's see some show and tell photos!

I'm still a noob to my 2WD Westfalia. Please list the kit contents, tire/rim specs, install, costs, etc...

- 2WD or 4WD lifted springs - www.syncro.org and or van-cafe.com??
- Spring Caps
- Any other mods needed?

TIA

[Christopher Schimke]

What kind of shape are your upper control arm bushings in? Bad upper control arm bushing will give you more negative camber.

If your bushings are in good shape and you want to fix the camber problem, instead of cutting the upper control arm, I would be inclined to weld up all three holes in the upper control arm, where the upper ball joint mounts, and redrill them offset as far as possible. It may be necessary to heat and flatten a small portion of the upper control arm so that the ball joint sits flat. There is very little stress on the upper control arm and upper ball joint so modifications like this can be done with too much worry.

Another approach, and probably my favorite, would be to build a spacer to go between the upper control arm and the upper ball joint. I would build it approx. 1 1/2"-2" tall. This will raise the upper control arm back into a more reaonable position eliminating the extreme angle that it sits at now. Not only will this help your camber issue but it will also relieve the ball joint angle. The biggest benefit to this spacer would that it will improve your handling by a LOT.

The reason is that it will improve the handling is that it will put your upper control arm into a positon in which it will gain negative camber in a corner. The way your front end is set up now with the upper control arm pointing down, when you go into a corner, the outside suspension compresses. When the susension compresses, the upper control arm goes up. In your situation as it is now, when the upper control arm goes up, it gains positive camber meaning top of the tire tilts outward. This is horrible from a handling and saftey situation. By raising the ball joint end of upper control arm up closer to parallel with the ground, when the suspension rises, it forces the suspension upright to gain negative camber, which aids in handling.

Because the lower control arm is also at an extreme angle, it helps to increase the negative camber gain but not as much as the upper control arms do. Because of this, you don't want your upper control arm exactly parallel to the ground. If you want to measure the angles of both the upper and lower control arms as compared to the ground, I can figure out exactly how tall of a spacer you would need so that you don't gain any positive camber.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)

*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected]

[snoop]

Sahweet! Thanks fellas! Particularly Chris! Yours is a very gracious offer which I'll gratefully accept. It'll be the weekend before I can measure the control arm angles and report back to with them. I'll use my Brunton compass and Suunto clinometer to measure. Should get pretty good precision.

Very interesting and humbling that the absence of performance negative that I wrote of was a perceived absence, not an actual one! Nothing better than reducing one's ignorance! Love this place!

The rear spring caps are California Bearing Ratio testing surcharge weights such as these: http://www.humboldtmfg.com/c-10-p-179-id-10-next-2.html
They can be had from testing labs that go out of business cheap. OD is 6", ID is 2"...works perfectly

The front caps are custom built from these:
http://soiltest.com/pdf/Concrete/samplepreparation.pdf See page 6 for the pads. The 6 inch diameter ones need only a little trimming to work...5.625" OD and 3.375" ID fits perfectly.

For fine tuning of lift height I made shims out of Mack Truck mud flaps. Then I glued them all together with Gorilla Glue. I've done some serious off-roading with these caps...nothing has moved. They have settled some.

Anyhoo, thanks very much guys.

Chris, I'll get back to you with the control arm angle measurements this weekend.

Thanks All.

Mike

edit: looks like I'll need a little help with the photos. And a tip for doin' it right next time!
_________________
87 Westy Camper

[TSR53]

Thanks for the info!

photos - just add the ".jpg" at the end of each one should do it.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/gallery/pix/363338.jpg

I want this mod - uber kewl dude !

[snoop]

ThanksTSR53.
Westy w/stock springs, GW 15" wheels and Michelin 215/65 tires.

Westy w/syncro.org springs, GW 16" wheels and BFG 215/70 tires.

Spring caps: rear and front.

Compressing the right front syncro.org spring.

Westy w/spring caps, syncro.org springs, GW 16" wheels and BFG 215/70 tires.

_________________
87 Westy Camper

[Herr Motorspiele]

That thing is awesome! Nice job!
Now where can I get some of those spacers for cheap over here on the right coast?

[snoop]

OK, Chris, got the control arm angles measured this morning. They are (relative to horizontal): lower (measured at the most outboard position, adjacent to the lower BJ): - 3 degrees; upper (measured on the top surface of the arm at the middle position): -27 degrees. Please let me know if other measurement locations would be more useful...top of upper BJ?

Much obliged for any help you can provide with sizing a spacer. Great idea, BTW. Thanks!

Mike
_________________
87 Westy Camper

[snoop]

For those interested in this thread the word from loogy is that he'll be out of town this week, info on UC spacer to come next week. I'm off to explore eastern Oregon in and around the westy!

Back on the 15th...will check in then.
_________________
87 Westy Camper

[usedcarr]

FWIW Seth at Mastercraft sells an extended control arm. The are on the vanperformance website, they look trick.
_________________
10'0" Lance Carson
6'3" Hamisch Fish
Schwinn Beach Cruiser
Sold the westy, never even drove it

[r39o]

OK, OK, my 85 Westy sits on syncro.org springs. Best I can get it to sit is at 18.25. To combat Westy lean I have a thick metal spacer I made for the left rear. It sits level with not alignment issues. An extra half an inch would make me more happy.

Question is: Where did you get those spacer rings, or did I miss that in some place in this thread?????
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)

[snoop]

[snoop]

[Christopher Schimke]

Alright, I was able to plot the geometry of the 2wd T3 front suspension. I found some interesting things. Keep in mind if you are new to suspension geometry that positive camber means the top of the tire tips outward. Negative camber means the top of the tire tips inward.

First off, take a look at this chart.

Stock Geometry - 0º Camber at rest

1" of wheel travel = +0.25º
2" of wheel travel = 0º
3" of wheel travel = -0.50º
4" of wheel travel = -1.00º
5" of wheel travel = -2.00º
6" of wheel travel = -3.50º

The geometry was based on a stock '85 GL. The blue line represents the point in which the front suspension actually starts to gain camber. Gaining some amount of negative camber is important to good handling especially during quick evasive maneuvers when the suspension goes through massive geometry changes. Note that the camber actually goes +.25º during 1" of wheel travel in the stock height geometry. Definately not a huge amount but the front outer tire in a corner should never go positive.

Now think about this. During a corner, let's say the inner suspension compresses 1". This means that the inner suspension will droop roughly 1" as well. Look at what happens to the camber gain when the suspension droops 1". It goes -.75º. This means that during this corner, the top of your outer tire is tipping outward and the top of the inner tire is pointing inward. Not a very good scenerio for good handling. And again, this is on a completely stock suspension.

Now let's look at westysapien's 2" lifted suspension as it sits today.

Lifted 2" - 1º Camber at rest

1" of wheel travel = 0º
2" of wheel travel = +1.50º
3" of wheel travel = +2.25º
4" of wheel travel = +2.00º
5" of wheel travel = +1.50º
6" of wheel travel = +0.50º
7" of wheel travel = -0.50º

It takes nearly 7" of travel before ANY negative camber is gained at the outside front wheel. The inside front wheel is gaining negative camber at an even higher rate as the inside suspension lifts.

If the camber was corrected to 0º but no spacers added, the profile is similar to the above example (-1º camber at rest) except that you gain full positive camber at 4" of wheel travel as opposed to 3" of wheel travel.

So here's the camber profiles if a 1", 1.5" or 2" spacer is added between the upper ball joint and the upper control arm. This profile is assuming an at rest camber of 0º. I only plotted the first 3" of wheel travel for these simply because I only wanted to see where the negative gain started. The reason for the 4" wheel travel profile in the list for the 2" wheel spacer is to show how rapidly camber is gained with that much spacer added.

1" Spacer - 0º Camber at rest

1" of wheel travel = +0.25º
2" of wheel travel = +0.25º
3" of wheel travel = -0.75º

1.5" Spacer - 0º Camber at rest

1" of wheel travel = 0º
2" of wheel travel = -0.50º
3" of wheel travel = -0.75º

2" Spacer - 0º Camber at rest

1" of wheel travel = -0.25º
2" of wheel travel = -1.25º
3" of wheel travel = -2.00º
4" of wheel travel = -3.00º

My recommendation would be to build a spacer somewhere between 1.5" and 1.75". Even a 1" spacer would help a lot. With a 1" spacer, you would start gaining negative camber roughly 2.5" of wheel travel whereas now you don't start gaining until roughly 6.5" of wheel travel. Quite a difference for such a small spacer. A 2" spacer gains negative camber too quickly.

It's amazing the difference between a 1.5" spacer and a 2" spacer. The 2" spacer gains camber so much more rapidly than the 1.5". I did not profile a 1.75" spacer but I would venture to guess that it would be a fairly decent looking profile with maybe ever so slightly too much camber gain near the 4-5" wheel travel mark.
_________________
"Sometimes you have to build a box to think outside of." - Bruce (not Springsteen)

*Custom wheel hardware for Audi/VW, Porsche and Mercedes wheels - Urethane Suspension Bushings*
T3Technique.com or contact me at [email protected]

[Alan Brase]

Chris:
Nice work. What wouuld be the effect of body roll during these cornering calculations? It seems like it could affect it.
I agree, the extension for the ball joint would be simplest. Though , cutting and welding the upper arm would not be too difficult, either.
It seems like machining a spacer trom aluminum and using linger bolts wold be simple.
Al
_________________
Al Brase
Projects: 67 sunroof bug, 67 Porsche 912 Targa, 70 Westy
Dec 1955 Single Cab pickup WANT 15" BUS RIMS dated 8/55, thru 12/55
To New owners: 1969 doublecab, 1971 Dormobile
Vanagons:
80 P27 Westy JUL 1979, 3rd oldest known US
83 1.6TD Vanagon, 87 Wolfie Westy daily driver, swap meet home