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Ed Ruth
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Joined: May 14, 2005
Posts: 343
Location: Bakersfield, California
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 Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject: Type IV engine "windage tray" technical rebuild qu |
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Tom Wilson's book mentions a windage tray in Type IV engines but when I took apart my 1978 engine it did not have one. The oil pickup did not have a fitting to bolt the tray into place. Was this item discontinued at some point in Type IV history? If so, why? Thank you
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We all have problems and so do buses. The universe is, after all, winding down. |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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I think the windage trays were pretty much for the 411/412 and the 914.
I am not sure a bus really needs a windgage tray. |
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vwmaniaman
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Joined: June 07, 2005
Posts: 597
Location: Grand Rivers,KY
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:21 am Post subject: |
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My correct code 75 Westy had one in it and when I rebuilt, it went back in. I haven't seen one without it, but as Randy says, it probably would be just fine without it.
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Working on a VW is like fun with a friend!
65 Beetle
75 Westy "Pumpkin Van"
86 Westy "Brown Betty"
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[email protected]
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Joined: June 14, 2002
Posts: 1663
Location: Palominas AZ
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: |
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It pretty much depends on the application. Windage trays were for the Type IV car - and the Porche application. Its to keep your oil from "piling" up doing windage (or high RPMs). Pretty much not a problem in the bus application/
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Ryan
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1963 Beetle
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germansupplyscott
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Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7239
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:03 am Post subject: |
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i have never seen a bus engine with a windage tray. not saying they don't exist, but i haven't seen one. 914 and 411 had them ditto randy.
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Bleyseng
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Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4759
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 7:31 am Post subject: |
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Most "W" code 1.7L engines didn't have them in fact don't even have the castings for one.
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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Mark
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Joined: January 20, 2003
Posts: 1523
Location: Victoria, BC Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 8:14 am Post subject: |
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If someone finds a windage tray in their bus engine upon teardown, it was almost certainly put there during a previous rebuild.
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NASkeet
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Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 3184
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:35 am Post subject: VW Type 4 engine windage trays |
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| Ed Ruth wrote: |
| Tom Wilson's book mentions a windage tray in Type IV engines but when I took apart my 1978 engine it did not have one. The oil pickup did not have a fitting to bolt the tray into place. Was this item discontinued at some point in Type IV history? If so, why? Thank you |
| Randy in Maine wrote: |
I think the windage trays were pretty much for the 411/412 and the 914.
I am not sure a bus really needs a windgage tray. |
| vwmaniaman wrote: |
| My correct code 75 Westy had one in it and when I rebuilt, it went back in. I haven't seen one without it, but as Randy says, it probably would be just fine without it. |
| [email protected] wrote: |
| It pretty much depends on the application. Windage trays were for the Type IV car - and the Porche application. Its to keep your oil from "piling" up doing windage (or high RPMs). Pretty much not a problem in the bus application/ |
| germansupplyscott wrote: |
| i have never seen a bus engine with a windage tray. not saying they don't exist, but i haven't seen one. 914 and 411 had them ditto randy. |
| Bleyseng wrote: |
| Most "W" code 1.7L engines didn't have them in fact don't even have the castings for one. |
| Mark wrote: |
| If someone finds a windage tray in their bus engine upon teardown, it was almost certainly put there during a previous rebuild. |
To save me typing it all out again, here is one of my missives, which I originally posted on the type2.com form, nearly five years ago:
http://www.type2.com/archive/type2/098728.html
INHIBITING OIL SURGE IN VW FLAT-FOUR ENGINES (AN UNDESIRABLE AND LITTLE RECOGNISED, COMMON PHENOMENON), BY MEANS OF A WINDAGE TRAY, 'WINDAGE-STYLE' PUSHROD TUBES AND/OR OIL-SUMP EXTENSION
Although unfamiliar to most VW owners, oil surge is a relatively common phenomenon, to which the VW flat-four engine is particularly prone (see Peter Noad, "Pace Notes", VW Motoring, November 1997, pp40~41); resulting from centrifugal effects, which cause the oil to surge out of the crankcase, through the pushrod tubes and into the valve rocker box covers, under conditions of 'high-speed' cornering. This leads to there being inadequate oil in the crankcase, such that the oil pump pick-up tube is not fully immersed and so sucks up a mixture of oil and air, which does not provide adequate lubrication; yet another reason to ensure that the oil level is always at the maximum mark.
'High speed', is a relative term and in the case of the flat-four engine, oil surge can occur, even under normal driving conditions with a VW 1200 Beetle, as Peter Noad personally discovered. One British owner, of a non-standard VW Beetle, with 1641cc engine, has observed exceedingly low oil pressure (illumination of the oil-pressure warning light, served by the standard 0·15~0·45 BAR oil-pressure switch), as a result of oil surge, when accelerating and/or cornering.
Although not in the same class as a Porsche 911, the 1968~79 VW Type 2, is a remarkably agile vehicle (even without after-market, front & rear anti-roll bars!), when skillfully driven, so it is probably equally prone to oil surge, as the VW Beetles. With the aid of an oil-pressure gauge or high-pressure, oil-pressure switch, one has the option of changing one's driving style in order to avoid oil surge or alternatively, to combat it, by implementing one or more of the recognised engine modifications. These modifications are a supplementary deep sump, a set of 'windage style' pushrod tubes and an oil windage tray.
As the name suggests, the principal purpose of the windage tray, is to prevent windage. Windage is the process whereby air is entrained into the oil, owing to the rotation of the crankshaft and connecting rods, plus to a lesser extent the camshaft; the air being dragged around by the moving surfaces owing to viscous friction. If by chance the oil-sump has been over-filled, then in extreme cases, the oil is whipped-up into a frothy foam. This not only radically reduces the lubricating properties of the oil, but also increases oil temperature and wastes power, hence increasing fuel consumption.
Being a horizontal baffle, which is positioned below the camshaft and just above the surface of the oil, when filled to the maximum, a windage tray also serves the secondary purpose, of limiting the extent to which the oil level can rise at one end of the crankcase (i.e. sump) and fall at the other, so reducing the effects of surge. The windage tray should cover the entire area of the oil reservoir and its edges be a tight fit, to the internal contours of the crankcase. To allow previously circulated oil, to drain back into the crankcase, it should have a limited area of slots or holes, close to the longitudinal, central axis. Where practical, these slots or holes should ideally have down-turned flanges or spigots.
In conventional engines with a separate bolt-on oil sump, oil would be further inhibited from sloshing to and fro, by incorporating vertical baffles, arranged longitudinally and transversely. Ideally, the baffles should incorporate one-way valves, to facilitate a rapid return of the oil to the pre-surge level. For a VW flat-four engine, any such vertical baffles, would have to form part of the windage tray. Home-made and proprietory aftermarket windage trays are discussed by Peter Noad, Bill Fisher and A. Graham Bell. Bill Fisher observed that all but the home-made windage trays he had seen (i.e. prior to his book being published in 1970), interfered with the camshaft.
An oil windage tray, with neoprene rubber, edge-sealing strips, is a standard fitment in the VW 411LE & 412LE, plus the VW-Porsche 914-4 engine crankcases. These windage trays can be retro-fitted to the 1972~83 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2 engine, as I have done with my 1911cc, VW 17/1800 Type 2 & 4 hybrid engine; which I photographed for inclusion in my pending technical book & magazine articles.
If a windage tray is being fitted to a VW Type 4 engine, equipped with carburettors and associated mechanical fuel pump, provision must be made, for oil lubricating the fuel-pump pushrod, to escape back into the crankcase. Tom Wilson's book (see pages 72, 74 & 123), both documents and illustrates the windage tray, but no mention is made of it, in the Haynes manual for the VW 411 & 412 and so far, I have not seen it mentioned in any other books!
A few years ago, whilst on a desk-top publishing course, I prepared an illustrated sheet, showing my VW 411LE windage tray, positioned in one half of the crankcase, together with the camshaft gear, which had been modified, by cutting two 0.090 inch wide grooves, to the depth of the gear teeth.
According to Bill Fisher's book (see pages 99 & 107), this grooving modification, is attributable to Gene Berg (that icon of Southern Californian, VW air-cooled engine tuning!), which is said to reduce the internal pressure and excessive oil mist (hence reducing crankcase breather emissions!) inside the crankcase, plus recovering a little of the power, used to squeeze the oil between the gear teeth.
Keith Seume advocates substituting windage style pushrod tubes, which also inhibit oil surge. These are characterised by a longer section of tube, which extends further into the crankcase. Bill Fisher suggests supplementing the standard pushrod tubes, of the VW 12/13/15/16000 Type 1, 2 & 3 engines, with > ¾ inch (i.e 19 mm) long sections of pushrod tube, to obtain the advantages of the windage style pushrod tubes. One end of the short tube section, is peened over to form a lip, so that it is held in position by the pushrod tube seal. He states that this simple modification, is commonly used in Formula Vees.
Priced at US$ 39·99 in October 1997, windage style pushrod tubes (stock No. 46-8531), for the VW 12/13/15/16000 Type 1, 2 & 3 engines, made from stainless steel (a useful bonus, as the original factory fitted components are prone to rusting) are available by mail-order from Car Custom Inc., in California, USA. I am not aware of any off-the-shelf, windage style pushrod tubes, for the VW Type 4 engines and owing to the form of the pushrod tube seals and crankcase design, it would not be practical to supplement the standard pushrod tubes, as suggested in Bill Fisher's book (see page 9 . However, it might be possible to extend the standard VW Type 4 pushrod tubes, by welding or brazing on, an extra length of tube.
Fitting a supplementary oil-sump beneath the engine crankcase, in conjunction with an extended oil pick-up tube, overcomes the problem of inadequate oil supply, associated with oil surge. Although oil surge can still occur within the crankcase, the oil does not surge out of the supplementary sump and hence the extended oil pick-up tube remains fully immersed in the oil.
Supplementary oil-sumps, of 175, 375 & 470 US quart capacities (note 1 US quart = 0·9464 litres) are available for VW 12/13/15/1600 Type 1, 2 & 3 engines, from Gene Berg (reputedly pioneered by him) Unique Supply, So. Cal. Imports, Kustom 1 Warehouse, Performance Express and other suppliers; including some in Great Britain. I believe there is also a SCAT branded, 1·5 US quart capacity, supplementary oil-sump available, for the VW 17/18/2000 Type 2 & 4 engines, but from what sources, I don't know! If anyone knows, please tell me?
REFERENCES
Peter Noad, "Pace Notes", VW Motoring, November 1997,
pp40~41
Tom Wilson, "How to Rebuild Your Volkswagen Air-cooled
Engine", HP Books, 1987, pp72, 74 & 123.
Bill Fisher, "How to Hot Rod Volkswagen Engines", HP
Books, 1970, pp96~99 & 107.
Keith Seume, "Aircooled VW Engine Interchange Manual -
the Users' Guide to Original & Aftermarket Parts for
Tuning", Bay View Books, 1996.
A. Graham Bell, "Performance Tuning in Theory &
Practice", Haynes Publishing, 1981, pp191~192.
J. H. Haynes & K. F. Kinchin, "VW 411 & 412, Owners'
Workshop Manual; 1679cc & 1795cc; 1968 to 1975",
Haynes Publishing, 1988.
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
https://vwt2oc.co.uk
Last edited by NASkeet on Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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pwilson
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Joined: August 08, 2007
Posts: 252
Location: Lake Charles, LA
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Nigel! Prior to reading your post (and the pics didn't hurt) I didn't know what a windage tray was.  |
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Bleyseng
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Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4759
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Since the oil doesn't flow back fast enough from the pushrod tubes/heads thru the tray, 914Guys cut holes where the louvers are. This helps drain the oil quicker from the heads... 
I don't install the trays in a bus, just no need.
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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Karl
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Joined: January 29, 2001
Posts: 6170
Location: Coos Bay, Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: VW Type 4 engine windage trays |
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| NASkeet wrote: |
Priced at US$ 39799 in October 1997, windage style pushrod tubes (stock No. 46-8531), for the VW 12/13/15/16000 Type 1, 2 & 3 engines, made from stainless steel (a useful bonus, as the original factory fitted
Fitting a supplementary oil-sump beneath the engine crankcase, in......
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Wow, I can buy a sh!tload of buses for that money!! |
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 52239
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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| I don't think that these things should be called windage trays. They are too isolated from the crank, rods, and pistons to see windage. What they do is prevent oil from returning to the sump as needed, potentially emptying the sump and starving the pump. Try and visualize your engine sitting at a 30° angle to the horizontal with one of these things installed and sealed to the edges of the sump. Then tell me how the oil is supposed to get back to the pump, unless you have several extra quarts of oil in the engine it won't do it. |
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Bleyseng
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Joined: July 03, 2005
Posts: 4759
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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more like sloshtrays as they help keep the oil in the oil sump under hard cornering...
I agree they can hold/prevent some of the returning oil from the heads thus the mod. 
_________________
70 Ghia Black convert-9/69 build date-stock w/133k 1600 SP-barn find now with a rebuilt tranny and engine
77 Westy 2.0L w/Ljet, Camper Special engine-95hp and with LSD!(sold)
76 Porsche 914 2.1L L20c, 120hp Djet (sold)
87 Syncro Westy Titan Red 2.1L 2 knob 100k miles |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 3184
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:42 am Post subject: Re: VW Type 4 engine windage trays |
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| Karl wrote: |
| NASkeet wrote: |
Priced at US$ 39799 in October 1997, windage style pushrod tubes (stock No. 46-8531), for the VW 12/13/15/16000 Type 1, 2 & 3 engines, made from stainless steel (a useful bonus, as the original factory fitted
Fitting a supplementary oil-sump beneath the engine crankcase, in......
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Wow, I can buy a sh!tload of buses for that money!! |
I suspect that the special character for the decimal point, somehow failed to carry across! I think it should have read US$39·99!
One cannot buy much for US$39,799 these days, especially with the US dollar exchange rate, plummeting against other stronger currencies, such as the Pound Sterling, Euro, Yen, CDN$, AUS$, etc. You certainly could not buy a new, Brazilian built, 2007 VW Type 2 Devon or Danbury campervan, for as little as US40,000, but US50,000 might just be enough!
Even the Taj Mahal in India, now refuses to accept the US dollar, because it was making a financial loss. Many contracters who work around the World, are now asking to be payed in Euros or other strong currencies.
Back in 1993, when I visited Russia, all the local inhabitants wanted US dollars, rather than Roubles, but soon they might change their minds, if they haven't already.
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
https://vwt2oc.co.uk |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2002
Posts: 1663
Location: Palominas AZ
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| Although not in the same class as a Porsche 911, the 1968~79 VW Type 2, is a remarkably agile vehicle |
Wow that made me laugh.
Same class?? Not even the same school - hell - its like comparing an Ivy League graduate and a Community College dropout.
Agile my eye. The last time I tried to take a turn "at speed" I prayed that
1. I'd stay upright
2. I'd stay in my own lane
2. That the camper interior wouldn't break loose and crush me.
_________________
Ryan
***********************************
1963 Beetle
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 3184
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: Suprisingly agile, 1968~79 VW Type 2! |
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| [email protected] wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Although not in the same class as a Porsche 911, the 1968~79 VW Type 2, is a remarkably agile vehicle |
Wow that made me laugh.
Same class?? Not even the same school - hell - its like comparing an Ivy League graduate and a Community College dropout.
Agile my eye. The last time I tried to take a turn "at speed" I prayed that
1. I'd stay upright
2. I'd stay in my own lane
2. That the camper interior wouldn't break loose and crush me.
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There are two possibilities:
Either your vehicle craves some much needed maintenance or you need to modify your driving style!
If you keep the vehicle balanced, by appropriate throttle use and progressive rate of change of steering angle, you might be surprised at how fast one can negotiate a bend!
It's a bit like photography. A good photographer with a cheap, simple camera, can often take superior photographs to a poor photographer, with an expensive, sophisticated camera.
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
https://vwt2oc.co.uk
Last edited by NASkeet on Sun Apr 12, 2009 6:08 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: |
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Nigel, it has occurred to me that you have WAY too much time on your hands.
We might have to get you a job.  |
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NASkeet
Samba Member
Joined: April 29, 2006
Posts: 3184
Location: South Benfleet, Essex, UK
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| Posted: Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
Nigel, it has occurred to me that you have WAY too much time on your hands.
We might have to get you a job. |
Now, there's an interesting thought! What did you have in mind?
_________________
Regards.
Nigel A. Skeet
Independent tutor (semi-retired) of mathematics, physics, technology & engineering for secondary, tertiary, further & higher education.
Much modified, RHD 1973 VW "1600" Type 2 Westfalia Continental campervan, with the World's only decent, cross-over-arm, SWF pantograph rear-window wiper
Onetime member, plus former Technical Editor & Editor of Transporter Talk magazine
Volkswagen Type 2 Owners' Club (Great Britain)
https://vwt2oc.co.uk |
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