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drozdenko
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Joined: July 18, 2005
Posts: 200
Location: CT
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 Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 4:40 am Post subject: Is a 79 horn setup different? |
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Hi All,
I read tons of postigs on the horn/steering column tube terminal/brown wire issues ect.. but..
when I looked at mine I had no brown wire from the horn button..I did see that on the bottom of the steering shaft there was a "jumper wire" across the rubber coupling to the steering box.
Did different years have different setups?
Or any other easy things to look for to fix the horn problem?
Thanks for all suggestions..
Lee
_________________
'79 Westy 2.0L "Hiltrude"
‘74 Super Beetle Rallye Yellow
'00 Jetta TDI
'01 WE Jetta 1.8T (Sold)
'02 Passat GLS 1.8T (Sold)
'96 Jetta Trek (Sold)
'88 Gti-16V (Sold) |
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VDubTech
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Joined: December 29, 2002
Posts: 9155
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 5:19 am Post subject: |
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No, you should have a black wire running up the column and attacing to the horn button in the center of the steering wheel. I ran out and snapped a pic of the horn button on my '79. When I got it the horn wasn't working at all, ended up being a broken ground wire where it goes around the steering coupler. Pretty common.
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hazetguy
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Joined: April 06, 2001
Posts: 10795
Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:03 am Post subject: |
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| VDubTech wrote: |
| No, you should have a black wire running up the column and attacing to the horn button in the center of the steering wheel. |
really? i thought the horn grounding circuit was a bit more complex than that. i know my 74 does not have a wire going up the column.
the wire in your pic is connected to the horn cancelling ring which is screwed to the bottom of the steering wheel.
there is a brass ring on the bottom of that, which rides on a tab on the turn signal switch.
that tab has a wire that goes through the turn signal wiring harness, which then has a male terminal at the end. that wire is brown.
then a female plug plugs on to that, which has a wire from the bus' wiring harness which runs to the horn itself. not sure of the color.
as far as i know, the only reason for a ground strap around the coupler is to make the metal of the steering column shaft a ground to complete the circuit when the button is pushed.
i had to fix my horn. the brass ring on the cancelling ring, and the tab on the switch were worn out. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=220886
cancelling ring on bottom of steering wheel. new on left, worn out one on right.
tab on new turn signal switch (it's that copper looking tab at about 11 o'clock on the switch)
worn out tab on old switch.
from the VW service manual.
Last edited by hazetguy on Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:09 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:30 am Post subject: |
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A 79 is different than a 74 I guess.
Black wire on Vdubtech diagram is correct. Keep in mind that if the "self-cancelling" tab is not correctly located (ie the steering wheel is 180º out), the horn won't work. |
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hazetguy
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Joined: April 06, 2001
Posts: 10795
Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:39 am Post subject: |
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| Randy in Maine wrote: |
A 79 is different than a 74 I guess.
Black wire on Vdubtech diagram is correct. |
interesting. i would like to see actual pics of this wire (where it goes in to the column at the bottom, and where it comes out at the top), and the bottom of his steering wheel. |
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drozdenko
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Joined: July 18, 2005
Posts: 200
Location: CT
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:02 am Post subject: |
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huh, thanks. I guess I'll connect a wire and see what happens. I'm trying to remember if the horn worked when I got the bus..I thought it did.
Thanks.
_________________
'79 Westy 2.0L "Hiltrude"
‘74 Super Beetle Rallye Yellow
'00 Jetta TDI
'01 WE Jetta 1.8T (Sold)
'02 Passat GLS 1.8T (Sold)
'96 Jetta Trek (Sold)
'88 Gti-16V (Sold) |
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hazetguy
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Joined: April 06, 2001
Posts: 10795
Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:40 am Post subject: |
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i just did a horn button circuit test on a 78 bus, which is the same as on my 74 (other than the difference in the actual steering wheel).
there is no "black wire" running up the column, and the circuitry is the same as on my 74, and as the wiring diagrams i have in my service manuals, and that can be found here in the technical section.
i have posted 24 pics in the gallery showing the parts, the different power and grounding circuits, what to check and how.
to see the pics, go the gallery, search the word: circuit
by submitter: hazetguy
please tell me how the 79 is different, so that if i encounter this in the future, i will not be frustrated because 79 is a "one year" set up. actual pics of the differences would be greatly appreciated.
Last edited by hazetguy on Sun Apr 12, 2009 12:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Randy in Maine
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hazetguy
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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i have been there now. did you look at the pics i posted?
i guess i just don't see why the horn grounding circuit would be changed for one year. i'll still hope someone will post some '79 specific pics.
the wire in vdubtech's pic only goes to the contact ring. where is the wire that supposedly goes through the steering column? i'm not trying to argue with you or dispute what you are saying, i just would like to see pics of what you are talking about. |
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drozdenko
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Joined: July 18, 2005
Posts: 200
Location: CT
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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me too since i'm stumped.. unless the PO removed the column wire. i have the wire on the wheel and the jumper across the rubber coupling.
thanks for all the tips..
Lee
_________________
'79 Westy 2.0L "Hiltrude"
‘74 Super Beetle Rallye Yellow
'00 Jetta TDI
'01 WE Jetta 1.8T (Sold)
'02 Passat GLS 1.8T (Sold)
'96 Jetta Trek (Sold)
'88 Gti-16V (Sold) |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| hazetguy wrote: |
| i guess i just don't see why the horn grounding circuit would be changed for one year. i'll still hope someone will post some '79 specific pics. |
From the FAQs up top here......
"9.22 Horn wiring:
VW horns aren't wired like other cars and when they get stuck blaring or won't go on at all it's often mystery to those with familiarity with auto wiring.
There is a picture in Bentley that shows a tab where the horn ground connects under the steering column. Can you guess why this was done? Because there is no wire running down the tube: VW used the tube itself as part of the ciruit. There is a collar outside the tab indicating that the centering of the tube is all important in keeping the horn from going off accidentally. Perhaps the tab needs to be bent further away. Either way you need a helper for alignment or need to stuff something at the base of the tube (seems awkward) before securing the base plate in the cab that holds the steering column in place.
How does the early 71-mid 74 wiring work? (Type2.com)
The steering column design changed in late 74 with VIN 214 2 164 060. Anyone trying to remove the early steering wheel probably knows this very well. It's no surprise the horn circuit is a slight mystery but the question remains: with two steering wheel designs is there one answer to this question of how the horn works? No.
For the later style, the tube is not used as part of the circuit. Let's follow the path the current takes. Starting with the (1) negative terminal of the battery and (2) frame, then onto the (3) steering box there is a (4) brown wire that connects the steering box on one side of the rubber coupler to the (5) steering column on the other side which is "electrified". Unlike the earlier design the shaft not the tube is used as part of the horn circuit.
At this point the circuit is purposefully broken by the (6) horn button which is sitting on springs. When pressed it connects with the (7) black wire of the cancelling ring on the underside of the steering wheel which itself is connected to a ( brass ring at the base of the cancelling ring. The ring rides on a piece of (9) spring metal which keeps the cancelling ring in electrical contact in all steering positions. The spring metal is rivited to a (10) brown wire which runs down the steering column shroud to a (11) terminal that interfaces with a (12) modular connector. The connector is part of a loom that eventually spits out a (13) brown wire and it runs down behind the fuse box, behind the kick panels into another loom where it joins the +12v from the fuse box (S11) for the horn and exits through the floor. From here both wires (gnd write from horn and +12V from fusebox) run along the underbody and terminate at boots protecting the (14) terminals of the horn from the elements.
I don't think there are enough points of failure in this design. Do you?"
I have not been that deep in to my 79, but I know that the 70 bus I had was different. On that one, the problem was at the steering box connection. |
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hazetguy
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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i know all that, we are talking about a 79, not a pre mid 74, and that kinda tells me that you did not look at any of the pics i posted, because i went in "that deep" this morning and i took specific pics of all those connections, the bottom of the steering column shaft, ground wires, etc, etc, etc, and also was pretty specific in describing what each pic was, and what to check for electrically. as far as i know, there is no ground for the steering column shaft other than the wire that bypasses the steering coupler. maybe through the upper column shaft bearing and ignition lock housing maybe. i am talking about the shaft where the steering wheel bolts to, NOT THE METAL HOUSING. i don't really care about the steering column housing itself, it is the shaft ground that is important on the later models.
there may be pics in the bentley book, although i did not see it in mine (i looked in the electrical and front axle/steering sections), but i find that many of the pics in the bentley book are for earlier bays and not very helpful for later ones, even though the text may touch on later bay stuff. and i'll tell you what, if you can find anything in the FAQ or "helpful threads" stickies, you are a better person than me. that stuff is incredibly disorganized.
i am also saying that i do not think the 79 is different than late 74 (which mine is by the way) -78, i can't find a difference in the wiring diagrams. by stating there is a "black wire", that is saying that 79 is different, and therefore a one year thing.
i want to see this "black wire running up the column and attacing to the horn button in the center of the steering wheel" that you and vdubtech claim exists. i don't think it does. and by saying it does, without actually seeing it or being able to verify where it goes to and from if it did, possibly inaccurate info is being posted to someone who is trying to figure out what is going on with their bus.
sure, there are plenty of possible bad connection spots, but they are not impossible to isolate, as everything is pretty much in-line with each other (again, look at my pics). 5 minutes with an ohm meter can easily diagnose which part of the ground or power system is bad.
drozdenko, go look at the 24 pics i posted and read the text, and compare and test your stuff accordingly, see what you come up with. |
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mattcuddy
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Joined: October 22, 2003
Posts: 2036
Location: Philly, PA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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| hazetguy wrote: |
i want to see this "black wire running up the column and attacing to the horn button in the center of the steering wheel" that you and vdubtech claim exists. i don't think it does. and by saying it does, without actually seeing it or being able to verify where it goes to and from if it did, possibly inaccurate info is being posted to someone who is trying to figure out what is going on with their bus.
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The wire doesn't exist, even on a 79.
If I'm reading Jon right, what he is referring to is a wire; as like on splittys; that runs the length of the steering colum, in the middle of the shaft and comes out in the center at the top, and through the steering box at bottom. The shaft "spins" around the wire. Again, non existant on late bays; including my damn near 100% original 79 Westy.
If it did, there'd have to be a hole at the bottom of the steering box for it to come out of; which there isn't. 79 is no different than the 78.
Last edited by mattcuddy on Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hazetguy
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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| mattcuddy wrote: |
The wire doesn't exist, even on a 79.
If I'm reading Jon right, what he is referring to is a wire; as like on splittys; that runs the length of the steering colum, in the middle of the shaft and comes out in the center at the top, and through the steering box at bottom. The shaft "spins" around the wire. Again, non existant on late bays; including my damn near 100% original 79 Westy.
If it did, there'd have to be a hole at the bottom of the steering box for it to come out of; which there isn't. 79 is no different than the 78. |
you are correect about what i am thinking, although i am nto referring to a black wire, vdubtech and randy are. what was stated by vdubtech seems to be inaccurate. i am just trying to clarify what vdubtech said, and randy agreed with. apparently vdubtech has vanished today.
| VDubTech wrote: |
| No, you should have a black wire running up the column and attacing to the horn button in the center of the steering wheel. |
| Randy in Maine wrote: |
Black wire on Vdubtech diagram is correct. |
Last edited by hazetguy on Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:32 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mattcuddy
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Joined: October 22, 2003
Posts: 2036
Location: Philly, PA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| hazetguy wrote: |
i am just trying to clarify what vdubtech said, and randy agreed with.
| VDubTech wrote: |
| No, you should have a black wire running up the column and attacing to the horn button in the center of the steering wheel. |
| Randy in Maine wrote: |
Black wire on Vdubtech diagram is correct. |
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The balck wire in Vdubtech's picture is correct, but it doesn't run the length of the shaft (in it, next to it, in the housing or in any manner). As noted in a post above, the shaft "is the wire". |
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hazetguy
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Posts: 10795
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| mattcuddy wrote: |
| hazetguy wrote: |
i am just trying to clarify what vdubtech said, and randy agreed with.
| VDubTech wrote: |
| No, you should have a black wire running up the column and attacing to the horn button in the center of the steering wheel. |
| Randy in Maine wrote: |
Black wire on Vdubtech diagram is correct. |
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The balck wire in Vdubtech's picture is correct, but it doesn't run the length of the shaft (in it, next to it, in the housing or in any manner). As noted in a post above, the shaft "is the wire". |
i know that, and even said that (sorta) in my first post in this thread, about the wire connecting to the cancelling ring, and then later:
| hazetguy wrote: |
the wire in vdubtech's pic only goes to the contact ring. |
i guess all i am saying is that there is no black wire. the grounding circuit is complex, yet easily troubleshooted. consult a wiring diagram or service manual. look at the pics i posted. trace each connection in the system, look for worn parts, corrosion, etc. step by step until the problem is found.
i mean hell, who's to say the horn in question even works to begin with, has that been checked individually?
Last edited by hazetguy on Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:41 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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mattcuddy
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Location: Philly, PA
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| Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| hazetguy wrote: |
i know that, and even said that (sorta) in my first post in this thread, about the wire connecting to the cancelling ring, and then later: |
right, with all teh back and forth just trying to make it clear to the original poster not to be looking for a wire running up the shaft. |
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Randy in Maine
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Joined: August 03, 2003
Posts: 34890
Location: The Beach
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 3:42 am Post subject: |
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| hazetguy wrote: |
i guess all i am saying is that there is no black wire. the grounding circuit is complex, yet easily troubleshooted. consult a wiring diagram or service manual. look at the pics i posted. trace each connection in the system, look for worn parts, corrosion, etc. step by step until the problem is found.
i mean hell, who's to say the horn in question even works to begin with, has that been checked individually? |
An excellent point Jon makes. The pictures in his gallery are pretty clear and pay attention to the one that has that short wire going to the steeering box. I had to replace that on my bus when I got it.
The black wire doesn't go all of the way down the column, but it has to be there. |
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drozdenko
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Posts: 200
Location: CT
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:14 am Post subject: |
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thanks for the tips...sorry to create such a "hot" topic.
i'll check it this weekend.
_________________
'79 Westy 2.0L "Hiltrude"
‘74 Super Beetle Rallye Yellow
'00 Jetta TDI
'01 WE Jetta 1.8T (Sold)
'02 Passat GLS 1.8T (Sold)
'96 Jetta Trek (Sold)
'88 Gti-16V (Sold) |
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germansupplyscott
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Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7239
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 6:35 am Post subject: |
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there is no wire inside the column. i just looked at a column here that is taken apart. i am not sure what made me think there was, but i must have been thinking of a different vehicle.
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