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Mick Ord
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Joined: April 26, 2008
Posts: 203
Location: Vancouver, BC
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 Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:45 pm Post subject: Zetec power figures |
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Tried searching the thread and bostig's site..but couldn't find and power/torque figures for the crate zetecs..unless i wasn't looking good enough....
Anyone got the figures ?? and maybe a torque curve map ???..just trying to see how it compares to other options..namely suby 2.5 and gowesty 2.4/2.5
thxs |
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tencentlife
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10147
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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Jim has curves comparing Zetec to a 2.1 wbx, but I can't give you a direct link because it's part of a tabbed page. Go to http://www.bostig.com/products/bostig-20/why-bostig , click on the "Benefits" tab, go down to "Wide Torque Band" to see the dyno chart.
If you're comparing based on peak torque and power it doesn't have a lot next to the other engines you named. Heck, my 2.2 with tuned exhaust puts more torque to the wheels from low 2k's to 4k rpm than the Zetec makes at any rpm. But I don't think outright torque and hp is the selling point, it's the well-worked out system and attention to details, excellent customer support and knowledge base that you get access to. Those are the selling point as it stands, and they've done an excellent job. I do think when the turbo upgrade becomes available it'll be a whole new ball game.
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TroySmith80
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Joined: October 09, 2008
Posts: 272
Location: Bend, OR
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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Humble of TenCent not to mention that he builds some pretty good VW engines, if you're considering that, you may want to look at his as well.
I just went through researching engine options. It came down to Subaru or Bostig for me. I was able to drive a van with each engine. My impressions are here: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...p;start=40
As far as HP/Tq for the zetec, i believe it's around 130 for each.
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1984 Westfalia Wolfsburg - 2.5L Subaru - Sold - Preparing to move to the dark side (4x4 Ford van) |
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tencentlife
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Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10147
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Well I did mention that I build some nice wbx engines, actually, but they're not for everybody and I'm glad they're not, because I couldn't build enough for everybody. I'm not in competition with the conversions, there's something for everyone and in my opinion it's all good.
It is important, though, if you're comparing by the numbers, to stick to the same measurements, meaning chassis dyno to chassis dyno, or flywheel to flywheel. Then if you're comparing flywheel you get into the question of, is it with ancillaries, or without? Pretty hard to sort that one out, since the info is not going to be easily found from manufacturers, because they don't really want you to know. Then you have to consider the notion, entertained by some people I consider pretty highly qualified, that the manufacturers flywheel numbers may be based on that ideal engine, while the one you happen to get is the run of the mill. I dunno what's really true in that regard.
Basically, if you're into the numbers game (which has serious limitations of usefulness for actually predicting real-world driveability, but hey, it is fun!) the only way to get at something approximating truth is to compare only chassis dyno tests with the actual engine in the actual vehicle you want to know about, ideally on the same dyno. That's why what Jim put up on the bostig site is a good and honest comparison. Contrast that with the GW charts where there's a whole lot of fudging going on, because he's trying to up-convert the wheel numbers to flywheel numbers; that's always going to be misleading, since engineers around the world can't agree on what actual driveline losses are and they would of course vary from vehicle to vehicle and also vary with rpm, wheel speed, and even which tires and wheels are being used. Whew! so complicated! So instead of all that projection, based on conjecture, at best, why not just stick to what can actually be measured and just compare that?
I've hunted and hunted to find a good chassis dyno chart of the Subys in a vanagon; the only one I ever saw was formerly at the bostig site but he removed it. One can only guess why.
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TroySmith80
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Joined: October 09, 2008
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Location: Bend, OR
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:04 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, sure enough. I guess i wasn't reading carefully.
I should have my 2.5 Suby up and running in a month or two. It'd be fun to put it on a dyno if somebody has one they'd wanna put me on.
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tencentlife
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Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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Definitely, let's see it!
It would be great, actually, to have a place where charts from the popular engine options, and even some of the unusual ones, could be seen in all one place, especially if people could stick to discussing the relative merits of what's being presented instead of writing our names in the snow. Am I an optimist?
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TroySmith80
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Joined: October 09, 2008
Posts: 272
Location: Bend, OR
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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For the purposes of comparing engine options, even dyno results are not of that much use if they're from different dynos in different places on different days. You can definitely compare the SHAPE of the torque curves, but can't get real specific on comparing numbers.
Have you seen the 30-50 challenge? There are a lot of variables (elevation, tire size, trans ratios, van weight, etc), still it's interesting to look at. Also, times are submitted by hand, and i'd imagine that some are tempted to err to the fast side so they can be proud of their van and/or justify the money spent. (I know i would be tempted!)
Interesting though: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=306851&highlight=3050
http://www.vanagonauts.com/files/30-50challenge.html
I'm not certain, but i believe this data was compiled by Warren Chapman, and that the source of graphs is Subaru factory tech paper for 2.2L and dyno test of 2.5L (Phase II) and VW factory manual for 2.1L WBX
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Last edited by TroySmith80 on Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:37 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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1621
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Joined: May 15, 2006
Posts: 2174
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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If someone sets up some dyno time, you can sign up my chipped 1.8T for comparison. I think that's a great idea. There should be enough converted vans here in the PNW that we could do it all on a single day/same dyno - keeps things all relative.
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TroySmith80
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 10:39 pm Post subject: |
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I know of a Bostig in Portland that i suspect might be game as well.
There are a bunch of tuner shops in portland with dynos. Maybe we could hook up with one of the subaru guys? They might be interested to see the vans.
Are we totally thread-jacking?
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tencentlife
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Joined: May 02, 2006
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Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think so; I think the OP got his answer, now we're expanding.
| Quote: |
| There should be enough converted vans here in the PNW that we could do it all on a single day/same dyno - keeps things all relative. |
Boy, that's good thinking. You've got everything up there except one of mine.
| Quote: |
For the purposes of comparing engine options, even dyno results are not of that much use if they're from different dynos in different places on different days. You can definitely compare the SHAPE of the torque curves, but can't get real specific on comparing numbers.
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No, not real specific, but it's still useful for comparison, so long as there's consistency in what you're comparing. The dyno's derate for all those factors in an attempt to standardise the measurements, and statistically all the errors aren't going to stack in the same direction so what you end up with is a smudgey picture of the output. But since any individual engine and vehicle are going to vary themselves quite a bit from day to day, as long as you aren't looking for accuracy better than, say, 96-97%, I think it's a pretty useful way to compare. I mean, I don't need to know whether a setup made 173 ft.lb. torque, I just know it's in the mid-170's. If something I'm comparing it to is also in the mid-170's, or high 160's, I'm going to be making my choice based on other factors because that difference is too small to matter.
I also pretty much ignore hp, it's a chimera. Show me the torque curve, that's all I wanna know.
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Mick Ord
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Joined: April 26, 2008
Posts: 203
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks very much for all the info...like many before, i'm at that stage of 'trying' to decide which is best for me !!!...theres so many options its not easy !....its alot of money to invest so it pays to do the homework etc...and i agree figures are only part of the picture |
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ftp2leta
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Joined: October 11, 2004
Posts: 3271
Location: Montreal
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Mick Ord wrote: |
| Thanks very much for all the info...like many before, i'm at that stage of 'trying' to decide which is best for me !!!...theres so many options its not easy !....its alot of money to invest so it pays to do the homework etc...and i agree figures are only part of the picture |
I hope no one is complaining  We could have NO option!
I strongly believe the more we have the more our great van will be on the road for a long time.
I hate "conversion/stock engine bitching thread". Let's keep it constructive.
Any engine can produce a lot more HP with some cheating, but you loose on reliability, gas consumption and life expectancy. The fact that Tenc stays under 2300cc (2.2 if i'm right) says a lot on is professionalism.
I have seen enough pictures of his engine, the outside aesthetic tell me a lot about what's inside.
Most en engine ECU/EMC can be chipped, electronic modification can raise HP up to 30-40% more.
My engine as longer duration cam, bigger valves and a slightly lower CR, the intake was P&P, bigger injectors and a custom tunned ECM.
In can safely produce anything between 185-215hp and fuel consumption is still around 19-20. But the cost of such head mod is very expensive and not worthed. For the same price of those 2 head i can get a WRX engine. But now i have a Turbo to worry about... something that make you think when you travel far away in countries like Mexico.
Torque is also very important in a Vanagon. And that the stock engine even as even at 90hp.
Ben
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1621
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Joined: May 15, 2006
Posts: 2174
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: |
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| tencentlife wrote: |
Boy, that's good thinking. You've got everything up there except one of mine.
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Aren't you due for a little road trip?
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10147
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:31 am Post subject: |
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double post, oops!
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Shop for unique and useful Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is death to doctrine.
Last edited by tencentlife on Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:35 am; edited 1 time in total |
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tencentlife
Samba Member
Joined: May 02, 2006
Posts: 10147
Location: Abiquiu, NM, USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:35 am Post subject: |
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| 1621 wrote: |
Aren't you due for a little road trip? |
Well, I did have that lovely trip up to Walla Walla this summer (except for that better part of a day spent beating it upwind across southern WIDE-a-ho.). My customer Noah is still there in Rocky-town, but that's still aways from PDX.
I do have the dyno work on my own engine, but some of the things I'm doing on the commercial rebuilds are making them even better than what I'm driving (which is a couple years old; lots of changes to my practices since then). But what I got out of mine on the dyno puts it in league with both the NA Zetec and the 2.2 Suby. I'm laying down 130ft.lb. peak torque at the wheels at 3200rpm, and it's over 110 from 2250 to 4400; I build torque for a truck, and there's a lot of area under that curve for such a small engine on stock FI.
| The Mad Montrealer wrote: |
| I hate "conversion/stock engine bitching thread". Let's keep it constructive. |
Me too, that's why you seldom see me comment on them; it's the same chest-thumping arguments and infantile bench-racing over and over and over and over and over and over and over......... The disdain heaped on what is my stock in trade, the wbx, particularly rankles, because most of it comes from people who aren't even qualified to have an opinion about it. I take the opinions of actual engine builders seriously, but I also don't know any who disdain the wbx the way so many armchair conversion proponents do. The real technicians recognise its strengths, and its limitations. I've been building engines since over 30 years ago, you can believe I wouldn't be messing with this particular mill if I didn't know that what I'm doing is sound and worthwhile.
_________________
Shop for unique and useful Vanagon accessories at the Vanistan shop:
https://intrepidoverland.com/vanistan/
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Please don't PM here, I will not reply.
Experience is death to doctrine.
Last edited by tencentlife on Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:36 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Mick Ord
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Joined: April 26, 2008
Posts: 203
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:29 am Post subject: |
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| Definately not "BITCHIN".....I also thank all the dedicated people/buisness's for 'allowing' people like myself to have such cool choices !!! |
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