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injac3p
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007
Posts: 257
Location: boulder, co
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 Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:37 pm Post subject: * Turbo * Distributor |
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I am finishing up my turbocharged (around 7psi), cb perf fuel injected, 1915cc engine. I installed a 009 mechanical advance distributor at 10deg BTDC static. Anyone have some suggestions on what to set the timing at statically/dynamically? Should this distributor get the job done?
What is the advance curve on the 009 series? and at what RPM does this distributor hit max advance?
Most people seem to have a fancy distributorless ignition with their turbocharged system...
Thanks! |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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If it's the old CB kit that doesn't control timing, I think you either have to limit or lock out the advance mechanism. If it does timing control, you have to lock the advance. Best thing would be to replace the ECU with Megasquirt, that way you can use EDIS distributorless. An MS ECU set up to do EDIS and the EDIS parts themselves shouldn't cost more than $500, which is a very worthwhile upgrade.
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| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
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Rowroy
Samba Member
Joined: November 07, 2006
Posts: 1012
Location: The ass of nowhere
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:20 am Post subject: |
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Along these same lines, why do many VW folks lock out their distributor instead of using a timing/boost controller? I've never understood that.
I had a MSD-6BTM on my Mustang that would retard the boost between 1 and 3 degrees per pound of boost. Why don't more VW folks go this route?
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injac3p
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007
Posts: 257
Location: boulder, co
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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I dont really understand why locking out the advance is necessary. Can someone explain why higher manifold pressure reduces the need for advanced timing?
Seems that regardless of the pressure, the timing should still advance at higher rpms simply to start the ignition process sooner (just like on a NA car of course)...
Seems like the timing has to advance to keep the pressure from building too much (before ignition) and having pre-ignition occuring. Right? |
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Rowroy wrote: |
| Along these same lines, why do many VW folks lock out their distributor instead of using a timing/boost controller? I've never understood that. |
Haven't learned that VW people are cheap in the 3 years you've been here? Those ignitions are like $300 new, locking the advance is free. Which one you think a turbo hippie is gonna do first? 
| Quote: |
| I dont really understand why locking out the advance is necessary. |
It's just a cheap way around boost retard, there are much better ways to get the job done though it's application dependent.
| Quote: |
| Seems that regardless of the pressure, the timing should still advance at higher rpms simply to start the ignition process sooner. Seems like the timing has to advance to keep the pressure from building too much (before ignition) and having pre-ignition occuring. Right? |
You should do some reading about why ignitions do the things that they do, in particular flame front propagation speed in relation to engine load and RPM, and cylinder head design. This has EVERYTHING to do with ignition advance, and the engine's requirements with regard to it.
Simplistically speaking, yes, you are right. Generally as engine speed picks up, so must advance to keep the spark happening at the correct time. This is because at a constant load gasoline burns at the same speed, so as RPM goes up you have to light the fire sooner to make the cylinder pressure occur at the same spot.
Pre-ignition is a condition that occurs when the mixture ignites before the spark plug fires, where detonation is a result of 2 or more different shockwaves intersecting in the cylinder. Pre-ignition can cause detonation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking#Pre-ignition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engine_knocking
I think the only thing you're really missing here is how load affects ignition timing. RPM is far from the only thing that influences timing requirements- air temperature, fuel quality, compression ratio, chamber design and on and on all play a part in the proverbial equation. Needless to say, you've got some studying time ahead of you. 
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| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
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injac3p
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007
Posts: 257
Location: boulder, co
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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Turbomania book is telling me to use a 009 distributor set at 24deg total advance and use a bosch blue coil. Sounds easy enough to me...
Thanks for the advice though. I think ill just give this a try and see what happens! |
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miniman82
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Joined: March 22, 2005
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Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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| injac3p wrote: |
| Turbomania book is telling me to use a 009 distributor set at 24deg total advance and use a bosch blue coil. Sounds easy enough to me... |
That will 'work'.
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| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
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Glenn 
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
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Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:38 pm Post subject: |
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Know what happens to a turbo engine with a oo9 that is not limited to 24 degrees?
Melty goodness.
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miniman82
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Matthew
Samba Member
Joined: January 29, 2004
Posts: 1760
Location: Eastern Tennessee
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| Posted: Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Locking the advance is just plain stupid even if you are cheap. The more effective route that is just as cheap is to limit the advance on the 009 by tweaking the stops. This way you will still have 8-10 deg initial advance and around 22-24 total. If you just take a regular 009 and set it to 24 total then your initial advance is going to be around 0-2 deg which will cause off-idle bog.
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injac3p
Samba Member
Joined: June 20, 2007
Posts: 257
Location: boulder, co
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| Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Turbomania also suggests a bosch "turbo" distributor that is a vacuum retarding distributor. Any idea what number this distributor may be? I cant find anything like it on CB Perf website...
Also, any tech articles on adjusting the advance curve of the 009?
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
Posts: 9515
Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:08 am Post subject: |
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| injac3p wrote: |
| Turbomania also suggests a bosch "turbo" distributor that is a vacuum retarding distributor. |
Might be referring to a DVDA, I've heard they can be run in retard mode. But as far as I know, Bosch never made a so-called 'turbo distributor'. I you go around asking for those, you're not likely to come up with anything but blank stares.
| Quote: |
| any tech articles on adjusting the advance curve of the 009? |
There are probably general articles, but none of them will do you any good without a recurving machine to check what you're doing.
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| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
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MURZI
Samba Member
Joined: August 25, 2005
Posts: 5066
Location: Madisonville, La
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:24 am Post subject: |
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Bosch made a "turbo" dist for the Volvo 240. It shares the same cap/rotor as the 009 and I am sure with some mods the guts could be swapped to a 009. It has a vacuum advance/boost retard canister on it.
Do some research on it...... A lot of retrofit turbo kits use it. I tried finding a pic on the net but came up dry. I am sure there are many 240 turbo's in the boneyards. You are looking for the dist on the B21 engines.
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miniman82
Samba Swamp Donkey
Joined: March 22, 2005
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Location: Southern Maryland
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:37 am Post subject: |
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OK, but that's not a VW distributor. Why not just put MEgajolt on it?
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| Glenn wrote: |
| satterley_sr wrote: |
I just wanted to bitch but I'm getting no sympathy. |
Welcome to the Samba. |
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Hotrodvw
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2004
Posts: 6327
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Rowroy wrote: |
Along these same lines, why do many VW folks lock out their distributor instead of using a timing/boost controller? I've never understood that.
I had a MSD-6BTM on my Mustang that would retard the boost between 1 and 3 degrees per pound of boost. Why don't more VW folks go this route? |
Beacuse not all of us have the cash for the 6BTM. 
I'll get one, just not yet.
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Eaallred
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Joined: May 18, 2003
Posts: 5756
Location: West Valley City, Utah
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Hotrodvw wrote: |
| Rowroy wrote: |
Along these same lines, why do many VW folks lock out their distributor instead of using a timing/boost controller? I've never understood that.
I had a MSD-6BTM on my Mustang that would retard the boost between 1 and 3 degrees per pound of boost. Why don't more VW folks go this route? |
Beacuse not all of us have the cash for the 6BTM.
I'll get one, just not yet. |
Go crankfire! Almost the same price, just a bit more fabbing. But you've finished your turbo setup, fab work shouldn't be too much trouble now!
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Hotrodvw
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Joined: July 06, 2004
Posts: 6327
Location: Orygun
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| Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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I know nothing about it, what it costs, I have no elec ignition, etc.... I'm in the stupid zone.
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78x94 with IDA's....oober fun
Horsepower is an addiction........Addictions cost
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borninabus
Samba R&D Dept.
Joined: May 18, 2006
Posts: 4717
Location: Arizona Highways
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:29 am Post subject: |
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just for kicks:
what about removing the spring from an oo9? wouldn't that be essentially the same as locking it?
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79414
Location: Sneaking up behind you
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:38 am Post subject: |
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| borninabus wrote: |
just for kicks:
what about removing the spring from an oo9? wouldn't that be essentially the same as locking it? |
No... you need to mechanically fasten the upper and lower shaft together.
I wonder if you can remove the internals of the oo9 and use the solid shaft from the 40HP Big Cap and then replace the contact plate that the points mount to. that would be a distributor with no advance.
I'll be right back.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
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Glenn
Mr. 010
Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79414
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| Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:41 am Post subject: |
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Nope... totally different lengths.
It would of been sweet.
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Glenn
74 Beetle Specs | 74 Beetle Restoration | 2180cc Engine
"You may not get what you pay for, but you always pay for what you get"
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