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zerotofifty Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2003 Posts: 1444
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:38 am Post subject: Vanagon fuel rail fix |
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to stop the worry of vanagon plastic fuel rails leaking (they can fail at the crimped joint, new fuels can attack the seal) I was able to use the steel rails form my 914 (type IV air cooled) one more plastic part eliminated in the fuel system. consider this option when rebuilding yoru fuel system, the elimination of more plastic parts will assure longer life of your van! |
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candyman Samba Trout Slayer
Joined: December 20, 2003 Posts: 2694 Location: Missoula MT
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:56 am Post subject: |
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any pics? |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15119 Location: Syracuse, NY
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JunkYarDog Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2007 Posts: 676 Location: New Mexico
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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That is designed for air, not sure I'd trust it. _________________ I have never owned a VW I didn't like, but there have been a few Fords and Chevy's.
85' GL Sunroof
68' Beetle sedan
72' Chevy C10 (LWB Step)
(67' Volvo 122S pending) |
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danfromsyr Samba Member
Joined: March 01, 2004 Posts: 15119 Location: Syracuse, NY
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Posted: Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:48 pm Post subject: |
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heh, remove the air couplings and install brass barb fittings.. and then it's overrated for fuel..
though on my baja I have had a aircoupling for my bulkhead fuel line fitting for 8+ years. YMMV and kids, don't try that at home.
had to replace it once in the 8yrs, picked up a slight damp/dribble on the high pressure line (when I was running CIS fuel injection) _________________
Abscate wrote: |
These are the reasons we have words like “wanker” |
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morymob Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007 Posts: 4683 Location: east-tn
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:48 am Post subject: |
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I don't trust the plastic ones either. Was about 70mi away and stopped for a minute, smelled gas and drivers side rail was cracked at base of barb and dripping onto ex pipe. Lucky a friend was close and brought the metal one from earlier one to replace. No old plastic from now on. |
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RGS Paul Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2007 Posts: 661 Location: Los Alamos, NM
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 8:12 am Post subject: |
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I don't love the idea of using the 914 rails because they have such a small volume, good to know that they fit though. There area couple of aftermarket companies selling big fuel rails for the 914 that would work great on the vans.
Paul _________________ '87 Syncro 7-Pass. Adventure Touring Vehicle
"Simplicate, then add lightness." Colin Chapman |
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seanjenn Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2009 Posts: 722 Location: TAOS
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:08 am Post subject: |
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RGS Paul wrote: |
I don't love the idea of using the 914 rails because they have such a small volume, good to know that they fit though. There area couple of aftermarket companies selling big fuel rails for the 914 that would work great on the vans.
Paul |
Any Idea which companies make those large volume 914 versions?
That 4-way air coupler idea is great. But the Harbor Freight couplers are shite. Ask me how I know. The side that has all the air chucks on it is very thin, as in the threaded area. There are only 2 maybe 3 continuous threads where those chucks screw in. Quality of threads is also not so great. They use quite a bit of glue(sealant) to seal up the "threads". Kind of a pain to get all that shit out of the inside. I made one, it worked great....for about 5mi then started leaking. Good thing I was in the hardware store parking lot, ran inside and grabbed a couple 5/16 tees and a couple more clamps. Got me home fine.
I used brass barb fittings and brass plugs as well as the correct joint compound to seal the threads. There are several different types of this compound, make sure you get the stuff that is safe for use with gasoline. Also you'll need to give it overnight to set up properly. I attribute the leaking to crappy threads in the 4-way, poor quality and not enough of em. Central Pneumatic was the brand. Look in the phone book for a pneumatic tools/equipment supplier, I'm sure the quality will be much better and you will probably have some more choices.
I've been thinking of having a machinist buddy of mine make me some, one piece billet style.
You could also build your own using some FI rail stock, cut your own threads in em and there you go. I can't believe none of the vendors that make their own upgrades have caught onto the fact that this is something they could sell easily and probably by the pallet full! _________________ 1987 GL Sunroof
2.1 4 spd |
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zerotofifty Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2003 Posts: 1444
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:43 am Post subject: |
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RGS Paul wrote: |
I don't love the idea of using the 914 rails because they have such a small volume, good to know that they fit though. There area couple of aftermarket companies selling big fuel rails for the 914 that would work great on the vans.
Paul |
have you havd any flow probelms with the 914 rail flow volume? (I have not started my van yet) the pipe diameters are the same as that of the rubber hoses, so I dont see it as a restriction. it does flow enough for a 2.0 liter 914 car, so i figure my 2.2 liter vanagon (big bore kit) should require about the same size.
let me know if you think I will run into probelms with this set up. |
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seanjenn Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2009 Posts: 722 Location: TAOS
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Don't know if this helps any but when I made my parking lot fix with those 5/16 T's, the van ran fine all the way home. Two of the injectors were being supplied with the factory plastic rail and the other two injectors had the make-shift T set up(much smaller dia.). It was about 6 miles to the house from where I was. There was no change in engine performance under power or at idle. Makes you wonder why they didn't just put the steel rails on in the first place. They probably had boxes of em left over from the Baywindows. I think that the FI Baywindows used the same fuel rail set-up as the 914?
Does anybody have some definative info on the volume requirements of the vanagon fuel rails?
I'd bet it doesn't have to be the same size as what's on there from the factory. _________________ 1987 GL Sunroof
2.1 4 spd |
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morymob Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007 Posts: 4683 Location: east-tn
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:10 am Post subject: |
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RGS Paul wrote: |
I don't love the idea of using the 914 rails because they have such a small volume, good to know that they fit though. There area couple of aftermarket companies selling big fuel rails for the 914 that would work great on the vans.
Paul |
If your van uses all the gas those rails will flow you must get 1/20th mpg or less. as for why they stopped using steel=cost to fab up line/cheap vac formed piece of plastic. |
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zerotofifty Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2003 Posts: 1444
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:32 am Post subject: |
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morymob wrote: |
RGS Paul wrote: |
I don't love the idea of using the 914 rails because they have such a small volume, good to know that they fit though. There area couple of aftermarket companies selling big fuel rails for the 914 that would work great on the vans.
Paul |
If your van uses all the gas those rails will flow you must get 1/20th mpg or less. as for why they stopped using steel=cost to fab up line/cheap vac formed piece of plastic. |
sorry I dont get what your saying here, (I am a little slow this morning) are you saying my milage will drop by 1/20 of a mpg with use of these (914) rails?
seems to me they are not much of a restriction compared to the plastic rails, same sized ports, only difference i see is the volume of the rail, same sized inlet and outlet. |
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morymob Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2007 Posts: 4683 Location: east-tn
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:45 am Post subject: |
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dave menche wrote: |
morymob wrote: |
RGS Paul wrote: |
I don't love the idea of using the 914 rails because they have such a small volume, good to know that they fit though. There area couple of aftermarket companies selling big fuel rails for the 914 that would work great on the vans.
Paul |
If your van uses all the gas those rails will flow you must get 1/20th mpg or less. as for why they stopped using steel=cost to fab up line/cheap vac formed piece of plastic. |
sorry I dont get what your saying here, (I am a little slow this morning) are you saying my milage will drop by 1/20 of a mpg with use of these (914) rails?
seems to me they are not much of a restriction compared to the plastic rails, same sized ports, only difference i see is the volume of the rail, same sized inlet and outlet. |
No drop in mi , just a reply to above statement about the lines being so small they can't handle the gas flow needed. Horse fertilizer, they have more volume than u will need running 2 engines. |
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seanjenn Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2009 Posts: 722 Location: TAOS
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 11:49 am Post subject: |
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How bout this, somebody mail me some 914 rails and I'll run em. I will provide a full right up at the end of testing, however long that may take! _________________ 1987 GL Sunroof
2.1 4 spd |
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RGS Paul Samba Member
Joined: April 20, 2007 Posts: 661 Location: Los Alamos, NM
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:02 pm Post subject: |
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morymob wrote: |
If your van uses all the gas those rails will flow you must get 1/20th mpg or less. |
Then why do most modern cars, especially performance cars, have giant fuel rails? It is to provide a pressure reservoir for when you bury the throttle. The pressure reservoir acts to help cover the transient fuel demand situations before the fuel pressure regulator and fuel pump can catch up. Might not be a big issue on a totally stock van but I'd still prefer to have a little extra volume out there then the stock 914 rails provide.
Sean, here is one company, I haven't dealt with then so can't vouch. There are a few others out there.
http://www.9xauto.com/914frail.htm
Dave, the 914 rails should be fine for the wasserboxer, I just think that there are better options out there. It might be a tiny performance difference but it might be worth it. Dunno…
Paul _________________ '87 Syncro 7-Pass. Adventure Touring Vehicle
"Simplicate, then add lightness." Colin Chapman |
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powderedwaters Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2009 Posts: 117 Location: Victoria, BC
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Posted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Just chiming in... have a look at the new rails...but scroll down to the bottom. Aluminum fuel lines? Any thoughts here?
http://www.9xauto.com/914frail.htm _________________ 89 VanagonGL Hannover Edition 2.1 AT |
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90Doka_Guy Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2007 Posts: 548 Location: South Jersey
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:58 pm Post subject: |
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This is the product of being snowed in all weekend.
I didn't cut open a plastic fuel rail to get exact dimensions, but I made some estimations based on external measurements to get the volume approximately equivalent to stock. Took about 6 hours to make this one. Now I have a pressure gauge permanently attached making the FI system much easier to troubleshoot. Tested under 60psi with no leaks. That's one piece I definitely do not want leaking. _________________ -'87 Westy
-'90 Tintop
-'90 DOKA |
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seanjenn Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2009 Posts: 722 Location: TAOS
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 5:03 pm Post subject: |
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Daaaaang that's nice!
Looks sharp. _________________ 1987 GL Sunroof
2.1 4 spd |
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simd0ggie Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2008 Posts: 418 Location: Chincoteague, VA
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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Keane, What did you seal the square end plate with? I don't see any gap.. _________________ -Matt
'85 Westfalia w/EJ25, '14 Tiguan R-Line 4 Motion
"There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a measurement. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery.” |
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90Doka_Guy Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2007 Posts: 548 Location: South Jersey
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Posted: Sun Feb 07, 2010 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks seanjenn
Sorry, crappy cell phone pic. Its all I have right now.
simd0ggie, you can see an o-ring groove in the above pic. I just used a standard -019 o-ring. Id be happy to send drawings to anybody who would like them. Just shoot me a PM. _________________ -'87 Westy
-'90 Tintop
-'90 DOKA |
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