Transmission flooded out in April 09. Salvageable?

[zadefaraj]

I was wondering if anyone could share their opinion as to whether or not this transmission could be salvaged. It's a 74 bay window with what appears to be a GEX rebuilt motor. I've read quite a bit about the GEX motors and the hit/miss with them, but this one seems to be okay (20k+) Anyways, the engine and tranny were totally submerged in April with the engine being treated for water almost immediately, but the tranny was not.

Since that time the bus has actually ran a short distance (max 1 mile), and from what I could tell, everything seemed in order except for some newly formed intermittent 1st and 2nd gear synchro scratching.

Well, I drained the tranny oil today and boy that stuff smelled pretty bad! I took some photos of the oil, the oil drain bolt, the metal shavings found on the oil drain bolt head, the very thick soupy mixture of oil and water, and also after running a small magnet thoroughly through the goop.

I let her sit and cool down for about 20 minutes before I drained the oil seeing as how I had to move it into my garage. The color and consistency is very much what I recall seeing coming out of the motor when I drained that out, just this time it's a LOT thicker. There were quite a few shavings found on the bolt as you can see in the photos. I tried to clean it up a little bit to see if they were large fragments, but instead, they were actually fine granules arranged along the magnetic field lines that turned into paste on touch. I also just read somewhere that it is not unusual to find this amount on the bolt.

I measured roughly 4400cc of fluid (4.4L or 4.65 US quarts) coming out of the trans, which may be quite a bit, but im not sure. I would really like to salvage the trans if possible, but I don't think I can make that determination alone. If someone would be kind enough to offer their advice or expertise, I would greatly appreciate it.


Thank you in advance!

[VDubTech]

Fill it up with fresh GL-4 and see where it goes.....what's the worst that could happen? I don't know how you want any of us to make a determination as to the life expectancy of your transmission.
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[Paslode235]

Refill the tranny with some fresh tranny fluid. Then after 500 miles or so drain it out and refill it with some more clean fluid. I am guessing the tranny will be fine.
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[zadefaraj]

thanks for the tip. considering the amount of shavings on the bolt, and any previous experience with flooded cars or vw's, i'd say someone might be able to make an educated guess whether or not it has a chance for survival.

[rumplestilskin]

the shavings are normal . unless u just changed the fluid recently before the flood
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[zadefaraj]

cheers guys,

i'll give it a go and post the results. these wonderful things just don't want to die. a good friend of mine just flipped his bus 1.5 times and did a 180 monday coming down from colorado to visit. everything got thrown about as if it were in a blender. but the only thing that broke was the side view mirror. even the front windshield popped out and was put back in without a crack. drove back home that very same day. albeit a bit slower.

[Rusty O'Toole]

The only problem would be if the bearings were rusted and it's impossible to tell that unless you tear the tranny down.

It's probably OK. It appears some water got in but it settled to the bottom of the tranny until it got mixed in by driving. As long as the bearings were not full of pure water, they are OK.

Drive it and see what happens. 9 chances out of 10 there is no serious damage.

[Amskeptic]

In very cold climates, VW has recommended ATF (like 10* below zero) in the manual boxes. I would think a nice short run down the road with some ATF to use as a flush would really help get rid of not only some of the sludge but it would also help blast out rust from bearing races. ATF has excellent detergent properties. Change and refill with GL4 80-90.
Colin
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[redwagon]

+1 for flushing it with ATF. How on earth did your friend come to flip his bus? Strong crosswind?

[redwagon]

+1 for flushing it with ATF. How on earth did your friend come to flip his bus? Strong crosswind?

[fusername]

I was going to say find something to flush the trans with, but apparently ATF is the ticket. then fill it up with something decent, run it a few weeks, assuming you drive this thing, then fill it with something good and don't worry about it for another 100k.

the trans only has one tiny pinhole for in/out on it, so it doesn't take on much water all that fast. Also most trans will have more metal than that, thats a pretty clean plug.
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[Emeritusx]

ATF is a good idea.. it is the recommended fluid when its colder than -31F..
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[Wildthings]

I used to do a lot of off road driving and drained out fluid that looked like yours from every few months to a year. Never really had any problems with it. This was on a non VW which was driven weekly but not daily. I have never been above just filling a gear box with Diesel, driving it around the block a time or two and then dumping the Diesel and filling it again with gear lube.

[raygreenwood]

DO NOT put ATF in the tranny. Yes...it can be used in very cold climates...but only if you remain with that gear oil.

No...metal filings like that are NOT normal. You should have little or no normal wear on gear faces. The only real wear parts in the tranny....if its running well....are non-magnetic. Those look like what you get when you have destroyed bearing cages.

If you really want to make that tranny survive...strip and clean it.
the reason you want to do this...is (a) if any of your bearings has a single rust pit or "fleck" that will trash the bearing in a moderate to short time. Needle bearings and roller bearings do not tolerate rough or pitted surfaces.
Hopefully you have no rust on gear teeth and faces. Those are hard and expensive to replace. The real issue here is not to drive it around with bad or damaged bearings.
Damaged ring and pinion bearings can do far more damage to the mesh and wear of the ring and pinion than even light rust on the faces of the ring and pinion themselves. The spyder gears tolerate no rust specs at all ebcause they will rapidly start wearing the thrust washers....and when those wear that leads to spalling of differential side gears and spyder gears.

ATF does work great because its thinner and a great preservative....but if you do not get every spec of it out of the tranny...it destroys the EP properties of the hypoid gear oil. Just ask anyone who has ever lost the seal between the automatic fluid section of the type 2,3 or 4 automatic tranny...getting as little as 4-6 ounces of tranny fluid into the hypoid gear oil and driving on it. It will literally destroy your ring and pinion in about 100 miles.

You can ONLY use ATF...with an additive package...when you are using the tranny in very cold climates....that do not change. Automatic tranny fluid in warm climates...meaning almost anything sub-artic...does not have the EP properties necessary to support a hypoid or semi-hypoid (which yours is) gearing.

You would need to fully flush this tranny with solvent before putting hypoid oil back in. A mix of the two oils does not hurt bearings, needle bearings or synchros...but it will hurt the final drive ring and pinion. Ray

[Wildthings]

[raygreenwood]

[Kirk]

I dont know anything about ATF in transmissions. I would fill it up with GL-4, drive it a while, drain it, and refill it. While driving, feel for anything odd. I think it will be fine. You didnt say, is this thing free, you bought it, you had it, what?
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[Wildthings]

[raygreenwood]

If its a Gl-4 rated ATF...thats a gear oil because its EP.
That is also not your average ATF. Different story.

Whats interesting is you saying you run 091's with ATF and getting high miles.
Ok...then what ATF were you running?...because your average Dexron II, IIE and III which is what the average Joe will take away from this conversation... WILL NOT ....safely lubricate any hypoid or semi-hypoid differential when its viscosity drops below that of a standard 90 weight hypoid oil. It flat out is not an EP oil and cannot survive the shear pressure of the gear teeth.

Ok...so if your transmissions do indeed survive on regular type F or Dexron in their differential....in warm weather...then that begs and/or creates the question that gets back to my original point:
At what point does a mixture of both fluids create a problem. It might just be that a mixture of the two causes a severe issue....and not just one or the other exlusively.

But it is 100% widely known and factual....that the addition of small amounts of ATF into hypoid gear oil WILL destroy the differential. Just go down to a transmission shop (especially Audi and VW) and ask how many absolutely smoked differentials they have had to replace due to seal failure in autoboxes. Those diffs are only marginally different than an 091 or a bug. This problem pretty much went away in the mid 90's due to changes in seal design and materials....but it was the absolute scourge of front wheel drive and European combined gearboxes.

Running 0-W 40 as auto tranny fluid is not a great idea either. Why?...because though it performs the hydraulic function perfectly well (a fluid is a fluid in that respect), real dedicated auto tranny fluids must resist oxidization, hydraulic shear thinning and oil film failure at temperatures over 450F in the torque converter (in not so odd cases 550F is common). There are no 0-W 40's that meet the temperature and viscosity control level for automatic transmissions. These are some of the hall marks of automatic transmission fluids and why there are so many specific ones. ATF...does not shear-thin or heat thin in exactly the same manner as motor oil.

If you were speaking of using synthetic 0-W-40 in the differential section....thats actually a better idea than using ATF. Ray

[zadefaraj]

I went ahead and topped up with fresh GL-4 gear oil. It still has a bit of trouble getting into 1st and 2nd, but every other gear is fine. The shifter has felt harder to locate gears since the flood, but I will assume thats due to wonky bushings unless anyone else can chip in. I'm going to run it with this oil for a week then drain it out, and possibly take it down and strip it apart to have a good look at the internals. I'll post more pics if and when I get to that stage.

Thanks again!

zade