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gr8cobbler
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Joined: May 04, 2006
Posts: 916
Location: Midlife Crisis, Midwest
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 Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 5:17 am Post subject: Lower cylinder cooling tin - worth it? |
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What's the common wisdom on these cooling tins? I'll be running a performance exhaust system and ditching the heat exchangers and therefore the mounting points for the lower engine tin. The $15 is cheap compared to the work of installation. Worth the effort?
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D5444
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Gary
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nextgen
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Joined: August 19, 2004
Posts: 6136
Location: CONGERS, N.Y.
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 5:47 am Post subject: |
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If you are talking about the tin under the headers, I would say for sure use them. The reason being-- if you look at the design, the part of the tin under the flywheel side is curved downward and the back of the tin is open. THe reason for this design is to direct the hot air from the engine and headers which is blown downward from the fan, back and out the back of the car. IF you are driving all the time, then the hot air will be removed naturally, but if you stop and you do not have the tin, your engine will be sitting in a pool of hot air, which will get sucked back into the engine by the fan and cause a Super Heating Cycle. Hot air in, engine gets hotter. Hotter air is now sent to the pool and now the even hotter air is again sucked in etc.
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Glenn 
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Joined: December 25, 2001
Posts: 79286
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Lower cylinder cooling tin - worth it? |
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| gr8cobbler wrote: |
What's the common wisdom on these cooling tins? I'll be running a performance exhaust system and ditching the heat exchangers and therefore the mounting points for the lower engine tin. The $15 is cheap compared to the work of installation. Worth the effort?
http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D5444 |
Those are Type 3 tins. If you have a Type 1 then use Type 1 tins.
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Glenn
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ALB
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Joined: August 05, 2008
Posts: 3496
Location: beautiful suburban Wet Coast of Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 5:56 am Post subject: |
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The type 3 pieces you've posted the link to don't belong on a type 1 motor and do nothing for it; use the stock type 1 flat air deflectors that snap onto the studs and save your money for beer. The lower sled tins and heater boxes (or industrial tins if heater boxes are removed) create a clean path for the spent cooling air to enter the airstream under the car, which at highway speeds can have enough positive pressure to prevent the cooling air from exiting the bottom of the motor properly and cause higher head/oil temps if left off. They can be trimmed or modified to fit around most, it not all merged exhausts. Sorry I don't have a link to pics, maybe someone can help here.
I hope this helps. Al
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germansupplyscott
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Joined: May 22, 2004
Posts: 7236
Location: toronto
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 6:31 am Post subject: |
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one other thing about the type 3 under cylinder tins (that i haven't seen mentioned) is that if they are installed you cannot fit the two small baffles on the rear left and right. i am referring to the two thin baffles that go close to the #2 and #4 exhaust ports.
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gr8cobbler
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Joined: May 04, 2006
Posts: 916
Location: Midlife Crisis, Midwest
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 7:04 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the replies, I made a bad assumption that the type 3 lower cooling tins could be used to replace the 'sled tins' ( 6, 10 an 9 in the diagram). That's part of the reason I risk looking stupid in the forum, I learn much more cheaply. 
Glenn you mentioned using type 1 tins, is there an equivalent type of product that perfoms the function of the sled tins without the heat exchangers to mount to?
Is that what ALB was referencing with the industrial motor tins?
Good suggestions on modification of the sled tins, I have considered that but was hoping to find a superior stamped solution if there was one.
While we'r at it does anyone know what cubic feet per minute measure the fan in a stock motor blows?
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Gary
Being a cheap old fart is just a front for my actual lack of money. |
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veedubcrazy
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 7:14 am Post subject: |
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I had tried them in the past and they never fit right. Part #11 and its twin on the other side of the engine always interfered with the fit. Now, I just use what is required.
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ALB
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Joined: August 05, 2008
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Location: beautiful suburban Wet Coast of Canada
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 7:16 am Post subject: |
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Don't worry about looking supid, asking questions is how we learn. I've stolen a pic from Glenn's gallery (my apologies Glenn) http://glenn-ring.com/engine/pages/157_5713.htm ; you can see them here with the sled tins. Someone here once upon a time posted a diagram with dimensions so you could actually make them yourself.
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gr8cobbler
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Joined: May 04, 2006
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Location: Midlife Crisis, Midwest
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 7:45 am Post subject: |
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Wow, that looks great, maybe I'll try my hand at that. Thanks
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Gary
Being a cheap old fart is just a front for my actual lack of money. |
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Lettuce
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Joined: December 04, 2009
Posts: 749
Location: Socal
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 7:51 am Post subject: |
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| I have type 3 under cylinder tins on a type 1 motor, but all the other tins and shrouds are installed. Should I tear them out and replace with the type 1 deflectors? |
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Almost Alive
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Joined: October 12, 2009
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| Posted: Wed May 26, 2010 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| No bueno. I've used them and they made no difference. They fit correctly but a waste of money IMO. Use your old stock ones, they function just the same and don't cost you anything. |
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nextgen
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candymustang65
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Joined: January 11, 2010
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 7:01 am Post subject: |
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Ok We need verification here on Tinn .
Samba is so messed up with mis information then to top it off Im half Crazy as well ?
That Tinn as I understand it is called cool tin and came on T-1 and T-3 .
Even tho it was called cool Tinn it actually helped warm the motor up faster and once warmed up it recirculated cooling flow around the cylinders better .
My understanding is that it came on Later V.W.'s both T-1 and 3 ?
Just My understanding of it .
I use it on Baja Motor's ?
Sqaure tinn if Im gonna runn the motor in a Car .
Just My understanding of It ?
Correct me if Im wrong on this Just trying to sort thru the B.S. pile ?
Sean |
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Stripped66
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Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3507
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| candymustang65 wrote: |
That Tinn as I understand it is called cool tin and came on T-1 and T-3 .
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It came on the T3; it never came on the T1.
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Even tho it was called cool Tinn it actually helped warm the motor up faster and once warmed up it recirculated cooling flow around the cylinders better .
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There is no way for these T3 "cool tins" to passively perform both of the functions you listed. The T3 tins were designed for the T3 cooling system and should not be used with the T1 cooling system.
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| I use it on Baja Motor's ? |
I know a lot of people omit many pieces of engine tin on Bajas that have an open engine compartment. Regardless of this trend, you'd still be better off with the stock T1 deflectors under the cylinders and the stock sleds that divert the exhaust cooling air to the back of the engine; additionally, those sleds will protect the pushrod tubes from rocks/debris that are kicked-up during offroad driving.
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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sgmalt46
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Joined: April 20, 2005
Posts: 1333
Location: south san francisco
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 8:09 am Post subject: |
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| nextgen wrote: |
| If you are talking about the tin under the headers, I would say for sure use them. The reason being-- if you look at the design, the part of the tin under the flywheel side is curved downward and the back of the tin is open. THe reason for this design is to direct the hot air from the engine and headers which is blown downward from the fan, back and out the back of the car. IF you are driving all the time, then the hot air will be removed naturally, but if you stop and you do not have the tin, your engine will be sitting in a pool of hot air, which will get sucked back into the engine by the fan and cause a Super Heating Cycle. Hot air in, engine gets hotter. Hotter air is now sent to the pool and now the even hotter air is again sucked in etc. |
????  how is the hot air getting sucked in? the only reason vw put those tins in place was to protect the push rod tubes. there was no other reason for it. i.ve left them off on a lot of motors . no cooling issues. they seem to run cooler if anything? no super heating cycle? on the type 3 tins. waste of money . they don't do anything. |
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Stripped66
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Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3507
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| sgmalt46 wrote: |
how is the hot air getting sucked in?
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That depends on how well the engine compartment is sealed. Consider that with the decklid closed, especially on larger displacement engines, the engine bay draws a vacuum. That vacuum will suck air into the engine compartment through any gap that will allow it.
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the only reason vw put those tins in place was to protect the push rod tubes. there was no other reason for it. |
When driving the car, the pressure underneath the car increases in proportion to speed. This high pressure region arguably can provide resistance to the flow of air over the cylinders and heads (flow being proportional to the difference in pressure between the cooling shroud and the underside of the engine); supposedly, the sleds minimize this effect. I've never seen test results that verify this, but there's some logic to the idea.
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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sgmalt46
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Joined: April 20, 2005
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Location: south san francisco
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| o.k. there is some logic to that. but if your engine is sealed good the hot air under the car is a non issue. cooling air come's from the top? no vw i ever had overheated while sitting idling? if it does there's another problem. vw put those tins there to protect the push rod tubes. period! they don't aid cooling. they didn't want some guy coming in for warantee work with a broken push rod tube after he went off roading with some buddy's after a few beers. |
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Stripped66
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Joined: May 31, 2005
Posts: 3507
Location: Charleston, SC
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 8:57 am Post subject: |
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| sgmalt46 wrote: |
| they didn't want some guy coming in for warantee work with a broken push rod tube after he went off roading with some buddy's after a few beers. |
Apparently Porsche was concerned about drunk customers rallying the sh!t out of their 356's too...
See, this is what happens when bean-counters mandate designs to save costs on warranty-related repairs 
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| 66brm wrote: |
| Bodacious wrote: |
| Why not just make a custom set of wires with a Y splice in them. Then you could just run one distributor. |
I don't think electrickery works that way |
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sgmalt46
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Joined: April 20, 2005
Posts: 1333
Location: south san francisco
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 9:03 am Post subject: |
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| yes my point exactly . they served no function but to protect the push rod tubes. ! thanks |
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Gary
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Joined: November 01, 2002
Posts: 17069
Location: 127.0.0.1
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| Posted: Thu May 27, 2010 9:09 am Post subject: |
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| sgmalt46 wrote: |
| o.k. there is some logic to that. but if your engine is sealed good the hot air under the car is a non issue. cooling air come's from the top? no vw i ever had overheated while sitting idling? if it does there's another problem. vw put those tins there to protect the push rod tubes. period! they don't aid cooling. they didn't want some guy coming in for warantee work with a broken push rod tube after he went off roading with some buddy's after a few beers. |
I don't think anyone started to Baja Beetles for quite some time after initial production. But, since you're such an expert -- have at it 
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