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pgtips
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 893
Location: essex
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 Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:46 pm Post subject: charcoal canister filter |
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Hi,
My filter is the one in the middle of this picture
http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa85/Bookwus1/Bug/IMG_0678.jpg
I read up that it is possible to empty out the old charcoal and fill it up with new GAC (granular activated carbon) to fill it with. - *not sure where I'll get that from yet but hopefully not too hard here in the uk*
My Q is has anyone actually emptied one of these and refilled it (the one in the middle of the pic). I'm not really sure what to expect, do they just prise apart or are they bonded, once apart will I have to reseal somehow.
Or would I be better off buying a new one from somewhere. I'll have to import it but if that's the only option then so be.
Have heard it can be bypassed but that's not what i want to do, i want it in and clean.
Thanks
Kev |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 53018
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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You want to go to the pet store, it's the same stuff used in aquarium filters.
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Oil Phil-M
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Joined: October 08, 2005
Posts: 547
Location: Vancouver, BC
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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| When I did mine I cut a hole about the size of a 50p piece on the top side of the unit away from any of the ribs. Pour out the old, pour in the new. then used a slightly larger piece of metal to cover the hole. Sealed it up with some RTV goop; wrapped a hose clamp or two around whole unit. Done. |
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Bookwus
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2003
Posts: 1786
Location: City of Roses
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Hiya Kev,
Since you are tapping into my pictures I suppose I should make a comment here..........
The middle e-can in the picture is a BAA 201 801. As you may surmise from the top of the canister in the picture, the top can be prised off for access to the contents. The top lid is constructed so as to be easily removable. You do NOT have to cut any holes in this unit. Nor should you even think about doing so. The charcoal load in this canister is not the pelletized charcoal found in the metal bodied 113 201 801A (on the left in the picture) Rather it is a finer grind of charcoal. This mix can also be found in a well-stocked aquarium store.
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Mike
1970 AS Bug
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Casey Ryan
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Joined: August 06, 2008
Posts: 340
Location: Downers Grove, IL
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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How would you know if you needed to replace the charcoal?
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Bookwus
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2003
Posts: 1786
Location: City of Roses
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Hiya Casey,
All you need do to determine the need for replacing the charcoal load is to remove the canister from its bracket. Then, capping the small port with your thumb, attempt to blow through the large port on the same end. If the canister load is clean you should be able to blow through the canister easily. The harder it is to blow through the canister, the dirtier the charcoal load is.
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1970 AS Bug
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pgtips
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 893
Location: essex
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:40 am Post subject: |
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Thanks Mike (Bookwus)
good to hear from you again, used to catch you on the vw semi auto forums, still got my semi auto replica convertible D (you guys call it a stick shift or autostick)
I'll prise off the top today of the cannister and see whats what then source some new charcoal.
Thanks again all.
Kev |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23282
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:59 am Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| You want to go to the pet store, it's the same stuff used in aquarium filters. |
Actually its not the same. Its similar....but the charcoal in cannisters has had its surface etched differently to be able to absorb and then release over a long life cycle.
What you find in the pet stores is better than nothing....but will not hold the same fuel volume....and will quit working in a much shorter period of time. Most granulated activated charcoal that is used in filtration (like for aquariums)....is designed to absorb an "hold" impurities. Thes impurities can generally not be released except through high pressure steam cracking.
The material in your carbon cannister is designed as temporary storage. It must outgas under light vacuum and purge air...most of the fuel vapor it has absorbed.
Very quickly, the aquarium variety will quit absorbing because it has maxed out.
They are both the same material....just different treatments. It is better than nothing but it generally leads to fuel condensation inside of teh cannister..l.and rusting. Ray |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 53018
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:16 am Post subject: |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| You want to go to the pet store, it's the same stuff used in aquarium filters. |
Actually its not the same. Its similar....but the charcoal in cannisters has had its surface etched differently to be able to absorb and then release over a long life cycle.
What you find in the pet stores is better than nothing....but will not hold the same fuel volume....and will quit working in a much shorter period of time. Most granulated activated charcoal that is used in filtration (like for aquariums)....is designed to absorb an "hold" impurities. Thes impurities can generally not be released except through high pressure steam cracking.
The material in your carbon cannister is designed as temporary storage. It must outgas under light vacuum and purge air...most of the fuel vapor it has absorbed.
Very quickly, the aquarium variety will quit absorbing because it has maxed out.
They are both the same material....just different treatments. It is better than nothing but it generally leads to fuel condensation inside of teh cannister..l.and rusting. Ray |
Good to know, so where should one be shopping for replacement charcoal?
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Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
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Bookwus
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2003
Posts: 1786
Location: City of Roses
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:44 am Post subject: |
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Hiya Ray,
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Actually its not the same. Its similar.... |
Yes, good point. I've run into this advice before (perhaps it was you?).
I have drawn something of a compromise in my situation. While I do run the charcoal from the aquarium store I change it out more often than VW originally suggested changing the emissions canister. VW's suggested changing out the canister at 40,000 miles. I remove the canister and change out the charcoal every third or fourth oil change. So, I'm letting each charcoal load go about 9,000 to 12,000 miles.
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1970 AS Bug
1970 Bus - The Ruptured Duck
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 53018
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm..... would the change interval be better off in calendar units instead of miles?, vapors happen whether driving or not.
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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pgtips
Samba Member
Joined: July 23, 2009
Posts: 893
Location: essex
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:48 pm Post subject: |
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Popped it apart, no problems there.
What do you guys use as replacement filter/gauze, it needs to be something breathable but I wondered if kitchen roll paper towel would be ok, I do have some other gauze around so will check those out as well but I think they are a bit smaller.
re the charcoal, aquarium stuff I can pick up, but another possibility might be the stuff used in cat litter. Unsure how effective but its another possibility.
thanks again,
kevin |
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Bookwus
Samba Member
Joined: August 30, 2003
Posts: 1786
Location: City of Roses
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| Posted: Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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Hiya bd,
| busdaddy wrote: |
| Hmmm..... would the change interval be better off in calendar units instead of miles?, vapors happen whether driving or not. |
A point well taken. Sort of a 10,000 miles or 10 months whichever comes first kinda thing? I'm pretty consistent in my driving mileage and changing out for me works out to about once a year on the schedule above.
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Mike
1970 AS Bug
1970 Bus - The Ruptured Duck
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petzl
Samba Member
Joined: April 09, 2010
Posts: 15
Location: Kimberley, BC
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| I had my engine replaced with my parts bus' engine and the charcoal can never got reinstalled. Is there a problem with not having a charcoal filter? If so, is there a specific way to route the lines or block them off? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23282
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| busdaddy wrote: |
| You want to go to the pet store, it's the same stuff used in aquarium filters. |
Actually its not the same. Its similar....but the charcoal in cannisters has had its surface etched differently to be able to absorb and then release over a long life cycle.
What you find in the pet stores is better than nothing....but will not hold the same fuel volume....and will quit working in a much shorter period of time. Most granulated activated charcoal that is used in filtration (like for aquariums)....is designed to absorb an "hold" impurities. Thes impurities can generally not be released except through high pressure steam cracking.
The material in your carbon cannister is designed as temporary storage. It must outgas under light vacuum and purge air...most of the fuel vapor it has absorbed.
Very quickly, the aquarium variety will quit absorbing because it has maxed out.
They are both the same material....just different treatments. It is better than nothing but it generally leads to fuel condensation inside of teh cannister..l.and rusting. Ray |
Good to know, so where should one be shopping for replacement charcoal? |
The companies I know within my industry...only sell in LARGE quantities...like drum size (400 lbs or so)  .
I never knew there was a difference in carbon types until back in 1998 when I was building vapor filtration systems for the printing presses where I worked.
I eventually found a company that built them proffesionally. This guy taught me enough to know that I knew little and needed to do a lot of research.
For the most part...most of the basic types are similar enough (coco carbon, wood carbons, coal carbons etc.) Technically they are all charcoal.
Here is actually decent basic information (for wikipedia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Activated carbon
This is a wimpy article..but makes some very good points
(a) There are 100's of different types of carbon
(b) the pore size and method of activation varies depending on use.
In our application...we were trying to absorb clean-up solvent (a mixture of acetone, Xylene, Toluene, alcohol and ethyl benzene....nasty stuff!). We wanted charcoal that does NOT readily re-release gasses. We used a specific grade of coco carbon...a bit larger than what is used in our cannisters. We alos used two grids of potassium permangenate...which can permanently, chemically absorb very fine toxins like benzene, heptane, hexane etc....to about 7 times its weight.
I have one person I deal with whose company makes capture units for large industrial inkjets. I will ask him some questions.
The real key here is that the charcoal ...whichever charcoal....gives us many many times the storage capacity than just the chamber itself. Aquarium/water filtration charcoal...will at least give us a huge surface area to capture our vapor.
I think possibly checking it every year or so may be wise. If on a half tank of gas you dump the carbon into a dish and find it wet....it might be worth changing.
Here is an interesting company. Read the first link carbon 101 and then look at the grading differences in the second link with reference to vapor recovery abd water filtration.
http://www.carbochem.com/activatedcarbon101.html
http://www.carbochem.com/productlist.html
Ray |
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busdaddy
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004
Posts: 53018
Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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OK, so can you recommend a particular product? seems the solvent recovery one would suit our need best, I have some connections in the chemical supply industry and forklifts do occasionally stab bags during shipping 
_________________
Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23282
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:00 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I'm thinking the same thing. By looking at that chart we at least have a "grade" # of a commercially available product. Just using that # and the company trade name...we can tell other companies what we are looking for.
Solvent recovery is the operative term....not just absorption. The object with this type of carbon is that some permanent satutation will occour...meaning all of the solvent can only be reclaimed usually by high pressure steam re-activation......but a large chunk of solvents can be sucked back out of the surface on a daily basis.
That type of stuff is usually used to expand storage capacity for manufacturing plant scrubbers. Then it is vacuum extracted to a centrifugal recovery unit and sold as recycleable solvent.
Our need is nearly identical. I also think we should have someone open up an original cannister and seeif we can get a screen # for particle/granule size. Ray |
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sclutty
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Joined: April 20, 2008
Posts: 43
Location: Boise, ID
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 1:13 pm Post subject: |
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| busdaddy wrote: |
| ...and forklifts do occasionally stab bags during shipping |
That's awesome...
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 23282
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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 Yes.....I have no problem with using floor scraps! Ray |
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webwalker
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Joined: January 26, 2006
Posts: 2803
Location: Mount Laurel, NJ
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| Posted: Tue Jul 06, 2010 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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I'd think a clever dubber could turn this in to a marketing opportunity.
i posted a procedure a few months back with picture on the drill out of and reload of a beetle charcoal can, including the addition of a bung to make it 'user serviceable'. (The originals weren't.)
I used aquarium grade carbon and got raked over the coals, by folks on that board, but I recall that no one else had any source for the correct grade of carbon.
M
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