What's with the #4 on the Subi power plant (carnage)

Racerrojo

This post is not to cause or feed the subi hating from some purist, but to enlighten those that might have similar troubles.
I less than a years time, I had two EJ engines go kaput because of # for connecting rod.
First and low mile EJ 25 on my '85 Westy had a loose bolt and nut on the bottom of #4 connecting rod and...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

And just recently mileage unknown EJ 22 on a different '85 Westy just "grenaded" it self to Sh...t

I think it needs an oil change

I was not driving the second one, and according to the driver owner it had plenty of oil going up a hill @ 5k rpm, the connecting rod went caca and trashed every thing on it's path.
I know I'm not the only one with this issue, Has any body have any ideas on why this is happening.
They both use a shortened oil pan.
Any way I'm putting a 45k miles JDM 2.2 engine. I hope is a good one Pray

_________________
Tight is tight... too tight is expensive!!!!

Too many vans and mostly all projects Smile

Vango Conversions · Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:23 pm Post subject:

Man, that sucks!

I've always been a little bit suspicious of the JDM engines. I know that plenty of people use them with no problems but if I bought a new car in japan and knew that I would need to part it out at 45K miles I certainly wouldn't do much maintenance on it. I mean why even change the oil...ever.

I have a theory as to why at least the one motors blew up. If it had a shortened oil pan and was running 5 quarts of oil or more, it's possible that the oil came into contact with the crank or pistons while it's running at 5,000 RPM the load of the crank and pistons hitting the oil can be quite high at that speed, causing stress on the rod. Also if the crank starts whipping through the oil, it can foam up and cause oil starvation.

I'd try running no more than 4 quarts of oil in the next engine. It should keep this from happening again. How much has your pan been shortened anyways? does your oil pump pickup have the proper clearance to the bottom of the pan? Too much clearance can cause the pickup to suck air at some angles and too little clearance can cause a high RPM restriction and oil starvation. Even having an improper gasket or too much silicone on thew oil pump pickup can cause a problem.

Before the 2.2 blew up did it ever blow smoke out the exhaust when going up hill at high RPM?

Gorge Runner · Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 10:51 pm Post subject:

Yeah, that sucks. A friend blew two motors -- the common part was the oil pump. First one threw a rod going up a hill, he found a short block and swapped all the components and it ran fine, for a while. When the second one blew, he took a closer look and found the oil pump was the problem.

I'm not sure anyone really knows how much oil is in the bottom of the stock pan not to mention the shortened pan at any given rpm. Well, other than when the the rpm is zero and almost all the oil is drained into the pan. Maybe someone here knows with some certainty, but I'd guess its quite a bit.

Marc
_________________
91 Carat
EJ205 WRX

r39o · Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:08 pm Post subject:

I am hoping to side step the oil level / quantity issue by using a Small Car aluminum oil pan.

While the Suby is quite reliable in a lighter weight sedan application, remember we are loading the little rice burners pretty well with 5000 pound vans. We ask for a lot of steam far more frequently than when they were in their before life. In other words we are asking for a higher duty cycle. Add to the facts that most are well used before get them. No wonder some explode under the strain.

In the old days we would, almost never, just stick a used engine in a car. We would open them up and overhaul them. It was economical to do that and you could get parts. Now we just do a unit replacement and pray we are lucky. Sometimes our prayers are not heard and one dies.

I attribute such deaths to running the engines hard and cheaping out by just sticking them in.

Win some, lose some.
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)

ftp2leta · Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:19 pm Post subject:

ftp2leta · Posted: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:25 pm Post subject:

I forgot one thing, 2.5L will in average eat oil, about 1 quart every 1500 miles so check your oil once in a wile. A small price to pay for reliability.

Ben
_________________
Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
------------------------------------------------------
FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/ftp2leta

insyncro · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 7:53 am Post subject:

Classic oil startvation for sure.
Did you swap all the conversion parts from one motor to the next with the same result?
I agree with Ben...check the pickup for proper fit.

dylan

r39o · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:05 am Post subject:

So just how do you check your oil pickup tube?

Would an oil pressure gauge show weird things going on?

Help me before I do something dumb and button my Suby engine up.
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)

914 mike · Samba Member Joined: May 03, 2005 Posts: 437

Who's shortened oil pan/pick up did the OP use? Did he swap it from the first trashed motor to the second?

These motors are notorious for lasting 300k +.....from the factory. If something like this happened its like what Ben is saying....must be due to tinkering with oil supply stuff....I have Kennedy stuff on mine and have been from Baja to Banff with no problems...its also my daily.

I wouldn't loose sleep over the issue, r39....just give it a good looking at...
_________________
Mike
84 Westy
2.2 Suby
In a world full of ponies it's a thoroughbred horse....
Can ≠ Should

Volksaholic · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:20 am Post subject:

I know I've read of some folks having a streak of bad luck with Subi conversions... but it sure seems to be in the minority. I find this of interest partly because I still need to shorten my oil pan and I want to make sure I get it right.

There are a couple of quotes here that I thought were worth commenting on... and one that I just couldn't resist:

Ben said:

ftp2leta · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:59 am Post subject:

ahem - the utterance of a sound similar to clearing the throat; intended to get attention, express hesitancy, fill a pause, hide embarrassment, warn a friend, etc.

I had to look this one up Smile

lot of Lol, double lol again.

Volksaholic:
Lately, in the car owner manual you can read that the engine may take oil for the first 6-7k miles. Engine breaking I guess. As I'm using late engine I often see that (report from customer). It seem to get better with time.

That said, I'm honest enough to tell you that I had to replace 2 2.5L (07-09) because of heavy oil consumption. Heavy, 1 quart every 300-400 miles.

That said, the 07 as been in my van and I can confirm. Now, this engine (short block) is on an engine stand and I will put it it million pieces soon and report later. Those 2 engine didn't sustain any obvious damage (car accident), but both where rollover!!!!!!! Oil starvation? Coolant in the pistons ring???

Now do your own search about 2.5L oil consumption, you may be surprise. On my side with 46 conversion done it seem that it's not a common problem. My 01 never consume oil at all. The 09 I have in there now either.

Average consumption seem to be about 1 quart to 1.5 per 3000 miles (5000km).

I have report of heavy smoke wile climbing/descending steep hill, last a few second, to much oil - foaming -crank splashing .

Short oil pan:

That was our first oil pickup, welded. It's now in one piece (bent-expensive machine)

Latest oil pan, bottom is 1/8 thick, carefully welded and tested.

Total dept, 4-1/8 including the 1/8 bottom plate.
Oil content: 4.2liter
Dipstick: using the stock unmodified 20006-10 one

This is a picture on a stock 06-10 oil pan (we can't use those):

Look at the carving to clear the new header (car), that is why they are back at 4.2L

Sorry, no picture of the new oil pickup.

Oil pickup distance to oil pan bottom: 1/4 MINIMUM - 1/2 MAX

Hope that help, now back to my conversion
Ben
_________________
Working with rust, grease, dirt and dust is a sad truth.
------------------------------------------------------
FI part for sale: http://www.benplace.com/parts_sale1.htm
My site: http://www.benplace.com/vw2.htm
Subi conversion: http://www.benplace.com/vanaru_eng.htm
Youtube http://www.youtube.com/user/ftp2leta

insyncro · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:07 am Post subject:

r39o · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:29 am Post subject:

r39o · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:32 am Post subject:

Not to thread jack, but while on this oiling topic. Is this windage tray in all the engines? If not, can it be used in my EJ22 application?
.

_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)

ftp2leta · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 11:41 am Post subject:

r39o · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:10 pm Post subject:

Yes, that press formed golden piece of sheet metal under the modified oil pick up you show. What you refer to as a "baffle" is what I mean by a "windage tray."

While on the topic, how do you clean the old oil tube pick up screen? In days of old we always found debris in crimped area of the screen. It has to be clean, of course, of such junk before installation.
_________________
"Use the SEARCH, Luke" But first visit the Vanagon FAQ!

1990 Multivan EJ 22, Rancho trans 0.82 4th, Small Car front AC, CLKs w/ 215/65-16, homemade big brakes 303mm, Konis, Recaros, etc....

Click to see my ads for Cup holders, Subaru clutch fix and CLK wheels (no wheels currently)

ftp2leta · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:26 pm Post subject:

Volksaholic · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:39 pm Post subject:

Racerrojo · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:50 pm Post subject:

Well the two vans had their own short oil pans,
I measured about 1/4" between the pick up and the bottom of the pan, there was debries at the pick up screen (but was not cloged).\
A few Weeks earlier the owner of the van was driving it pretty low on oil I could hear the lifters 50 feet away, obiusly that engine was burning some oil but it was not obius smoke or serius leaks, I replacec the PCV valve, toped it off and the noice went away after a few miles. Maybe the damage was done then.
_________________
Tight is tight... too tight is expensive!!!!

Too many vans and mostly all projects Smile

Racerrojo · Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2011 5:15 pm Post subject:

Fine. maybe I exaggerating, but I rather have to deal with a EJ than WBX any day. But... for each its own. there's planty of other treads that people can hash it out about that.
_________________
Tight is tight... too tight is expensive!!!!

Too many vans and mostly all projects Smile


Hello! Log in or Register \| Help \| Donate \| Buy Shirts	See all banner ads \| Advertise on TheSamba.com

What's with the #4 on the Subi power plant (carnage)
Page: 1, 2 Next

	Forum Index -> Vanagon	All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time Page: 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2