Engine in pieces, not sure what I'm doing, lots of questions

[mattegan]

Okay, this is a long post. Here goes. It all starts with.... this:

Rocker Arm Assembly Came Loose While Driving?

Brief Summary:

Driving down the road, lost power, discovered rocker arm assembly had come loose from the head, bolts were hand tight

Pulled the pushrods, made sure they were straight, reinstalled the rocker arms.

Did complete tune up: valve adjustment, points, timing, oil change

During the oil change, I found a nice clump of metal stuff (pretty fine consistency) in the oil strainer, probably about a teaspoon of volume

And then this:
Low compression after rocker arm assembly came loose.
Another Brief Summary:

Heads were running hot on the 3+4 side, where the rocker arm assembly came off (about 30 degrees hotter than the right side, I've heard the tale that #3 runs hotter, but I've also heard that's not true on models with the doghouse cooler)

Did a compression check, good compression on the 1+2 side, but poor (under 90psi) on both 3 and 4

After I rechecked the valve clearance, this seemed to fix the compression issues (3 +4 were back up to 110, 115psi)

Again, set timing, set dwell/point gap, and I was on the road

I had to head home on a 350 mile trip after this. All this happened up in Virginia, I live in Atlanta. 40 miles down the road in the mountains I stopped to check oil temperature and it was way too hot for my liking (250°F), and my heads were way hotter than I've ever read them (370°F when they normally run 320°F), however, at this point, both head temperatures were equal.

So... I called the technical support line at Jbugs, just so I could instantly talk to someone, and he said I should check my timing again (I've read that it should be set warm, and I did set it cold, though I'm not sure how the tightening of valve clearances can effect the timing, but I complied anyway), it looked like I was way off on the timing somehow, 25deg instead of 30-32deg. So I set it, tightened the bolt and got on down the road.

Drove another 40 miles before I pulled over to check temperatures again. At this time..... unfortunately my senses were tickling telling me something wasn't right. It felt rough, like it wasn't giving enough power. When I pulled into the gas station the engine was running really rough, skipping all over the place. Oil temps were the same, the head temp on 3+4 was about 320 (which is a normal reading for me) but 1+2 was running abnormally cool (285°F) way too cool for how hot the oil was.

This is when I got a tow home.

So, here I am. Engine apart, I haven't split the crankcase yet though.

Before I took the engine out I checked the valve clearance, turns out the clearance was way too small, it had tightened up somehow down the road..... or I may have adjusted it wrong. Though I've set the valves multiple times before and have never had a problem, so who knows. I also redid the compression test, and the compression was way low all around. About 50-40 psi on every cylinder. This is why I split the engine open.

So... here I am. Engine apart. I've inspected the head and the jugs, and there's no sign of cracking. I can't really tell if anything is warped as far as the head goes, and the long rods that go into the crankcase don't seem to have stripped out of their threads (which I hear can happen if the heads overheat and try to warp).

So, at this point, I'm not sure what to be looking for. Here's a video of me putting pressure on the 3+4 pistons, just to see if there's too much wear in the jugs.


Link


I can take a picture of the inside of the heads tomorrow. The valves and the top of the heads are the same black color that the top of the pistons are.... not sure if that means anything. I think I might buy the rebuild book by Tom Wilson, lots of people recommend it.

At this point, I'm just not sure what my course of action should be. Should I crack the case and look for broken things (like, where did that clump of metal come from? It has to be from inside the crank right?). What could be causing low compression if the heads aren't cracked? Bad valve seating? I think I'm going to get some measurement tools and a valve spring compressor tool so I can look at the valves/seats.

I have no clue how long it's been since it's been rebuilt. Should I buy a rebuild kit (jugs, heads, pistons, connecting rods, crank, cam, lifters), such as the one from Mid America Motorworks sells and just do a full rebuild from the crankcase out? (Maybe I can sell the old parts to make up some of the cost for the rebuild kit).

Or... what. Hello? Haha, I'm in really deep and I know it, but I love tackling hard problems so throw it at me. I'm ready.

Thanks for your help everyone!

[Danwvw]

Well if you found metal pieces in your oil then it's in need of a rebuild, I would Just go through everything, take the opportunity to install a counterweighted crankshaft, new cam, W-100, New Piston and cylinders, 88mm, any other improvements like full flow oil filter and perhaps new case if needed. Is your case a dual relief case? Dog-House fan cooling system? All these things are important if your wanting a good dual port. At least have those heads rebuilt but better to just replace them, Kind of depends on if you have someone you trust to do them. They will need new exhaust valves and guides etc.. Single HD springs. I would get new lifters too. If you can afford the L3 heads go for them.

Pictures so we can see what you have, Fan, Fan Shroud, Case etc.
_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!

[OLD VW NUT]

I think you've jumped the gun a bit. The varying differences in compression testing tells me you may not have performed it correctly. Did you open the throttle fully - and the choke too? That alone will give you false readings. Did you check the motor warm or cold? Your oil temps were a bit high but the head temps weren't that bad. This could be as simple as missing some tin or dirty and clogged up fins on the heads and cylinders.
_________________
71 Ghia Coupe - stock body - no rust! Powered by a 2110 W/Dual HPMX 44's - Rancho Pro Street Transaxle - A/C by Gilmore

Other car - 2013 VW Golf TDI

[mattegan]

I may have. I'm doubting it though. Something HAD to happen internally for the engine to be running fine at good temps up to Virginia (which is way more uphill than the way back, when it broke down) and at terrible temps on the way back.

Would a leak down test be a good idea?

[db69]

I'm not going to try and diagnose your problem but at this point if you do decide to go with the rebuild I had really good luck with mid America's rebuild kit everything measured in tolerance it came with rebuilt heads new p&c's rebuilt crank new cam etc. it was my first rebuild and I measured everything weighed everything and opted not to have it balanced(I recommend balancing) but the engine runs as smooth as any type 1 I have ever seen.

[Danwvw]

Mid America sends out a lot of sales materials and they are really geared to Stock VW stuff. But there are some better quality parts out there for less money. I would also look at these sites,
AirCooled.Net,
Cip1,
CB-Performance,
Mofoco,
West Coast Metric,
and companies like,
Socal, Jbugs, Kustom1, and Texas Air Cooled sometimes have some pretty good deals on Non OEM stuff.
One of my favorite little companies that has some oem quality parts is AutoHausAZ.

But you have your engine out right? Take it apart and see what was happening in there. (Only takes a couple of hours!) Measure the end-play first! If it's more than about 5,6,7,8 thousandths then the main bearings are needing replacing and the case may need work.
_________________
1960 Beetle And 1679cc DP W-100 & Dual Zeniths!

[mattegan]

Okay, I think I'm going to swing by Harbor Freight and get a few tools. I'm going to get a dial gauge, a micrometer, a ring compressor, a leakdown tester and a valve spring compressor.

I talked to the guys at Mofoco, about performance vs reliability and durability, and they said that increasing to 1776ccs is about the sweet spot for both.

They recommended an align-bore and a bore for some larger cylinders, as well as case savers (which, I may already have, weren't they standard after a specific year?). Unfortunately, I leave to study abroad on the 18th of August, and they won't be able to do it for a minimum of three weeks turnaround. I want to have my car back together before the 18th so when I get back for Spring semester I have my car.

There are so many options here, I'm overwhelmed with reading. New cams? Different heads? (The Mofoco heads seem nice, though the ACN heads get good reviews too, opinions on this?)

I totally need some guidance here. I think I definitely want to go ahead and do a total rebuild so I don't have to crack this thing open again for a substantial amount of time.

[talljordan]

If you are building a 1776 it would be a total waste to use a stock cam IMHO. Heads you don't HAVE to switch, but if you use the stocks you will have low end torque and not be able to rev as high, but with some that are ported you will have a larger RPM range (and probably more power)

I would also put in a counterweighted crank, if not for the performance, for the added smoothness.
_________________
1972 Super Beetle, Parked until adequate restoration funding is acquired in restoration!

Wanted: Male computer diagnostic plug end

[sb001]

I don't have an opinion on rebuilding yourself vs taking somewhere vs boring out to 1776 vs whatever, but I am pretty sure you can rent at least the ring compressor and valve spring compressor from AutoZone for free (at least I seem to remember that's what I did)
I'm in the same boat and just got the Tom Wilson book, I'm going to try it myself and see what happens. Good luck
_________________
I'm the humblest guy on this board.

1969 autostick sedan, family owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor

[57BLITZ]

[mattegan]

Yeah, I probably should have done more tests as I was deconstructing the engine. Though, from the tests I did before I took the engine out of the car, I know it was something more than badly adjusted valves or timing.

I didn't do extensive testing before taking the heads or jugs off because by the time I had gotten the engine out of the car I pretty much had decided to do a full rebuild.

I fully understand and respect the importance of making precise measurements while constructing an engine.

At this point. I'm about to open the crankcase. I can't seem to get the wrist pins out however, I tried heating the pistons with a hairdryer (until they were pretty warm actually) and they still didn't want to budge. I read another thread and somebody else recommended unbolding the rods and just taking the piston+rod out of the crank as a whole and getting the wrist pin out of the piston when it's on the bench. Undid the two bolts holding the connecting rod in on one of the pistons, and it still won't budge.

Any ideas?

I've called some machine shops around here to check services and such and I'm just so skeptical of sending my case to a place that isn't experienced with VWs.

I've also been reading about engine upgrades (almost finished with the high performance chapter in the Muir book) and just around the forum and such. I feel like I'm putting a puzzle together, where every puzzle piece costs money and has twenty identical but different options, and then there are hundreds of people standing around the puzzle arguing about which variation of the piece I use.

Right now.... I think I've settled on boring to 90.5mm with replacement cylinders and pistons.

Here's what I'm not sure of right now:

--Should I get a larger crank to stroke it? I hear this gives more lower end torque... but this would put me over 1776, somewhere in the 1800s, is this less reliable/durable (I want this engine to last a good amount of miles)

--If I bore or stroke it... when do I need stronger connecting rods?

--What about a new cam with higher lift? I know this gives more power, but what about just some ratio rockers? I know above a 1.4:1 I need to upgrade the cam as well, where should I stop? I probably should get some stronger pushrods too, right?

--Heads.... I'm thinking the mofoco 042's, but should I get them ported? What about dual springs? Stainless steel valves? What about the ACN heads? Or the heads from Midamerica?

--Who is a good supplier of the pistons/cylinders/connecting rods?

--Carbs? I read the Muir section on carbs and he just threw models all over the place and it clarified almost nothing for me. I see a lot of people running dual carbs... but at what displacement is that necessary? I've heard good things about Webers, but... what you do you guys think?

--Exhaust? Again, at what point here do I have to think about upgrading the exhaust? Is 1776 going to warrant it?

So many variables here, it's kind of crazy.

[mattegan]

Oh, and am I correct in my understanding that normally a counterweighted crank is a waste, but with any performance modifications it couldn't do any harm and allows for higher revs? -- In the same vein... I shouldn't mess with a lighter flywheel, correct? I've read that it causes more vibration of the crank?

[57BLITZ]

In my 1776 . . . A D.P.R. welded counterweighted 69mm (stock stroke) and a lightened flywheel. Shaving the flywheel will bring the rotating weight back to where it was before adding the counterweights on the crank.

Would build the very same thing again in a heartbeat.

A stroker is going to add complication and cost for the benefit of more torque. You've heard the saying . . . Speed costs money, how fast do you wanna go?????
_________________
Jesucristo es mi Señor y Salvador!

[mattegan]

Totally. I think I might keep the same stroke. Just curious, just how noticeable is the change between 1600 and 1776?

[57BLITZ]

[57BLITZ]

[sb001]

[db69]

If you have not read aircooled.net's tech articles this is a good starting point. Lots of your questions are answered there or at least it gives you options to think about. Great resource that I haven't been able to find anywhere else.

[sb001]

[swelchy]

Original poster... private message me I live in Atlanta metro and can offer some advice
_________________
1969 Westy 1915cc 044 heads 94 bore 69 stroke scatCWcrank scat lifters C25 cam straight cam gears 1:25 ratio rockers CB weber idf 40's vintage speed sport exhaust.