Chinese MSD Distributor Tips & Tricks + Budget ignition Demo

[ottobevis]

Noted thank you Jpaull. I'll contact Holley and see if by chance they know.

I was wondering if the specs that were listed give an indication of peak current. Is there a formula or ratio that can be used (using the other specs commonly listed) to calculate peak current, and duration for that matter?

[jpaull]

[ottobevis]

Thank you Jpaull. Understood about the relationship of turn ratios to current/volts and a lower turn ratio usually is preferable (Scott Novak had quoted 1:85 or below is preferable years ago). Also about U cores being more efficient. Just looking at various coil specs on the internet it seems there is tradeoff between peak current and duration too, although I could be wrong.

I didn't know that primary resistance quoted is normally true. It makes sense, its also easy for anyone to check using a regular multimeter so difficult to hide.

Comparing the two E core coils (8251 and 8207) they look pretty close in specs except the peak current (300ma versus 1100ma). Do you know what spec(s) contribute to this big difference? I'm thinking maybe a ratio between primary and secondary ???, or inductance, or something else like the gauge of wire used?

[jpaull]

I would not say that lower turns ratio is always better, or likely better even. Look at the 8253 U core coil, its 100:1 turns ratio and still manages a 450mA peak current. Not only that, it still manages a spark duration of 450uS, which defies normal rules some, but thats a genuine technology advancement in efficiency.

Its likely that Scott Novak was not aware of coils like this 15 years ago. I see one of the times on shoptalk forums he mentions dont go over 85:1 turns ratio. This was in 2008, and the HVC2 coils had only been out a few years. There are many different choices for coils now. Not only that, even the used market has changed alot, because the new and expensive has had time to be used and up for sale. I think he would have fun testing the U core coils, and the Moroso plasma coil that is 165:1, and many other coils that are available now in the used market that was not available 15 years ago in the used market. Now all those expensive coils can be found on the used market for cheap and tinkering guys can test this stuff without going broke. There is a totally different selection of budget used stuff, and the MSD clone distribitors that change the ballgame for ignitions on a budget.

I think at that time, he gave some pretty good advice on what to get, where to find a powerful ignition for a good price. He also had some great points on distributors.
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[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg

Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth.

[ottobevis]

I see your point, I think Scott would have been referencing the turn ratio to Jacobs coils back then.

I hadn't heard of the Moroso plasma coil, it shows a very long duration and low peak current. It reminds me a bit of a 91 Crane coil. I think Cranes view was that the 91 was better for engines below 9.5 compression. I'm guessing their view was longer duration, less current is preferable for low compression engines and low RPM's. Shorter duration, higher current coils (92) preferable for high compression, higher RPM's.

[boxer74]

[rbolner]

Morning ,not sure where to jump in on this subject but been reading these old threads for a while and came across these Ignition coils from Summit Racing. Both are under $50. Specs are below. 1st one says E-core, 2nd one doesn't.

Ignition Coil, CD, High Output, E-Core, Epoxy, Black, 48,000 V, Universal
Summit Racing Part Number:
SUM-850615
UPC:
190861138018
Coil Style:
Remote mount
Primary Resistance:
0.250 ohms
Coil Internal Construction:
Epoxy
Coil Wire Attachment:
Male/HEI
Coil Color:
Black
Maximum Voltage:
48,000 V
Turns Ratio:
70:1
Secondary Resistance:
3.10K ohms
Inductance:
3.50 mH
Peak Current:
425 mA
Spark Duration:
200 uS
Notes:
Designed for use with a 6-series CD ignition.

2nd one
Ignition Coil, High Output, Epoxy, Black, 55,000 V, Universal
SUM-850617
UPC:
190861238343
Coil Style:
Remote mount
Primary Resistance:
0.240 ohms
Coil Internal Construction:
Epoxy
Coil Wire Attachment:
Male/HEI
Coil Color:
Black
Maximum Voltage:
55,000 V
Turns Ratio:
72:1
Secondary Resistance:
3.10K ohms
Inductance:
3.50 mH
Peak Current:
425 mA
Spark Duration:
250 uS

The primary resistance might be under threshold mentioned for some cd boxes. Also, couple of vendors sell SQR Performance 8.5mm Spark Plug Wires #126741 50 Ohms/ft. under $60 V8 universal set. Any thoughts, Race

[jpaull]

Boxer, the wide tip rotor will work great, you should not have to phase the rotor. If your so far off that the wide tip is not sparking, you have other problems. The best way to Phase the rotor, is cut a hole in your cap to see whats happening. Its a good tool to have and do.
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg

Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth.

[boxer74]

[jpaull]

rbolner, Those coils are very close to the threshold of working well or not. I see that Summit gave the ok to use on a 6 series for one of them, so its up to you if you want to give them a try. Im only comfortable saying a blaster SS or 8253 HVC2 is 100% good and safe. The 2 coils your showing have the potential to have more power then the blaster ss, but they will also "tax" the 6a box more. The way i would check, is simply connect a blaster ss, see the spark, and then run one of those 2 coils you mentioned. if it indeed gives a more powerful spark, its not too much for the 6al box. If its not different, then its taxing the 6a box and not a improvement. Sorry im not of any more help.

The wire set you mention is a great set. 50 ohms per foot of spiral wound goodness is what you want. You just need to use something on the spark plug ends to keep the air from escaping the tin.
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg

Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth.

[rbolner]

Thanks jpaull. from what I have been reading here on these threads you have been a tremendous help with feedback and knowledge. As for the coils, both Summit coils could be used with 6al per phone conversation with Summit. I'll try the spark test when I get them. I do have the blue Intellitronix CD box 150DL/DM to use, there recommended coil is MSD 8202. Tech said engineer advises any coil with inductance of 4 mH or higher, higher the better. They work with Summit on recommendations. I'll try Summit coils with it cause it has a failsafe built into their box. As for the wires, CB's wire ends are the best for sealing tins(you have to modify the after market one's cause they suck/or leak). I did go to Oreillys for the SQR's and this is what they gave me, MSD 5551 SF wires. Numbers scratched out and SQR 126741 sticker on it (have pics but don't know how to load them). Didn't complain at the time cause I had a race that weekend, and you can make 3 possible sets with them (comes out to $17 a set) I'll try again with Oreillys for the real SQR's. (I get a military discount) Thanks again, Race

[Clatter]

Thanks again Jeff for doing all of this.
Really opened my eyes - and improved things greatly around here.

One of our real cars was in the shop so my wife took the Oval out to run errands.
Even after sitting for months with old fuel, it fired right off and idled cold.
Never would have been able to do that with the old blue coil setup.

Probably the best thing i ever did for that car.
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Bus Motor Build

What’s That Noise?!?

[jpaull]

[boxer74]

[jpaull]

[jpaull]

[Rob Combs]

Thanks to all of you for really going down the rabbit hole. This thread, combined with the Black Box thread, has expanded my understanding of ignition systems in a big way as I would probably not have studied to the extent of knowledge provided by our resident experts.

This inspired me to reconsider my coil choice from last year. I picked up an MSD 8207 based largely on the knowledge shared here and a call to Holley to verify it would get along with my Streetfire CDI. Great cost-effective upgrade that replaced a Blaster 2 8203 cansiter coil. Probably should have done the 8207 in the first place, as the 8203 is a bit more expensive to begin with and apparently not as powerful. We live and learn...

Still not entirely sure if there's a placebo effect here, but the coil change did seem to make cold starts a tad better, hot starts quite a bit better, idle ever so slightly smoother, low speed acceleration/tip-in a bit smoother, and the idle speed seemed to pick up by about 75-100 RPM. I might pull back idle advance from 15 to 12 to see if it slows down the idle a bit without carb adjustments. Easy and reversible programming change if it doesn't make a difference.

This was not just for giggles, but in preparation for an AMR 500/water injection setup that I'm getting close to finishing up and hope to install early in the new year. I figure the better ignition cannot hurt.

[jpaull]

[boxer74]

[jpaull]

Boxer, thank you for confirming that!!
_________________
[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg

Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth.