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bcrazy
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2009
Posts: 231
Location: Oslo
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 Posted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 11:48 pm Post subject: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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Is there anything that can to the stock drum brakes to improve stopping power? Not talking about upgrading to discs or porsche 356 drums.
Anything that can be done while still keeping the stock drums? |
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mukluk
Samba Member
Joined: October 18, 2012
Posts: 7045
Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 12:36 am Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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Keep them adjusted and your tires inflated properly. Carry less weight in the car. Drive slower. Go to the gym.
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Albertoprop17
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2016
Posts: 196
Location: Valencia (Spain)
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 3:30 am Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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Marco de Waal has adapted front bus brake shoes and rear bus brakes to his vintage speed beelte. You can check it at instagram as Marcosupplies, I think. He's looking to adapt the complete front bus brake system (except the drums)
Simple mods to stock brakes are superbeetle front brake cylinder, post 68 rear brake system (wider shoes) with 19mm brake cylinder or split bus specific 21mm one for beetle brake conversion (straight axle or irs) and a bigger master cylinder, like a bay 22mm one
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Mattatat
Samba Member
Joined: October 29, 2010
Posts: 41
Location: 303
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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| One of the best things i did was switch to the braided stainless hoses. Pedal feel is solid without flex from the rubber ones. |
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frenchroast
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2019
Posts: 680
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 7:34 am Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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| bcrazy wrote: |
| Anything that can be done while still keeping the stock drums? |
The biggest factor with drums is to have the linings arced to match the radius of the drum. You can do it yourself (dusty) or have a shop do it. Each set of linings has to be arced to match its drum (don’t mix them up). Also make sure the brake light switches are in good shape and use the good European made ones; they can be a weak spot. Overall, just make sure the mc, wheel cylinders and lines are in good shape. Some people recommend stainless sheathed lines but I don’t think they make a difference for a street car.
If you’re using the really old NOS non-metallic linings, you can drill holes through the shoe to get rid of the gases that build up. Find a picture of drilled drums to get an idea of the pattern. I wouldn’t drill the drums unless you have the tooling to chamfer the holes. Better to just use metallic shoes; drilling and venting drums and rotors is just for looks anymore. Metallic doesn’t have the initial bite like the old material but doesn’t fade as much. |
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13317
Location: Tejas!
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bcrazy
Samba Member
Joined: October 24, 2009
Posts: 231
Location: Oslo
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:59 pm Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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| Erik G wrote: |
along with arcing, they do sell semi metallic linings, aircooled.net has them called super stoppers https://vwparts.aircooled.net/SearchResults.asp?Search=super+stopper&x=0&y=0
now for me, I did one super stopper type and one regular shoe in each drum, the leading shoe being the super stopper but it shouldnt matter. old trick someone taught me a long time ago. I used to get them at Kymco, glad ACNET has them |
Ok, but why not both shoes "super stopper" ? |
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vwracerdave
Samba Member
Joined: November 11, 2004
Posts: 15350
Location: Deep in the 405
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| Posted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:32 pm Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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The Type III rear brakes are larger and keep the 5 lug bolt pattern. You could use the rear brakes off a 4 lug Bug then use 5 lug VW Thing brake drums. Either may require additional parts swapping to work, and would make both sides 1/2 wider.
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petrol punk
Samba Member
Joined: August 21, 2007
Posts: 986
Location: Las Vegas, NV
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 8:54 am Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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I have the larger super beetle front wheel cylinders on the front of my oval with 58-64 brakes. I'm happy with the performance, it can lock up my 165's without a great deal of effort. Aircooled.net also sells larger rear wheel cylinders. iirc correctly I have the stock rear cylinders and a 19mm master. The pedal is slightly on the mushy side, but going up to the larger 21mm master would probably make it too stiff unless I went with the larger aircooled.net rear wheel cylinders too.
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57BLITZ
Samba Member
Joined: June 12, 2012
Posts: 2385
Location: DEEK - U.S.A.
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 1:52 pm Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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| bcrazy wrote: |
| Erik G wrote: |
| old trick someone taught me a long time ago. |
Ok, but why not both shoes "super stopper" ? |
That old trick (using brake linings of different compositions in the same drum) can be effective for vehicles equipped with "self-energizing" drum brakes. These brakes may also use different lining sizes for the 2 shoes in each drum, and are frequently "self-adjusting" by design.
Our air-cooled VWs do not have that type of brake design, so the advantage of using two different lining compositions at each wheel is pretty much nil. 
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j-dub
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 866
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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On my car I have the 58 - 64 brakes front and rear. I have 22 mm wheel cylinders up front and 23.8mm super beetle wheel cylinders in the rear. Semi-metallic shoes all around and a 17mm single circuit master cylinder. The brakes are really pretty good, I am happy with the performance. This is the best combination I have found so far.
Shoes that match the arc of the drums is key, the first set of front semi-metallic shoes I got did not match well at all. For the price it was not worth the hassle of trying to sand them to match better.
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"POLICE STATION TOILET STOLEN ... Cops have nothing to go on." |
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Albertoprop17
Samba Member
Joined: March 15, 2016
Posts: 196
Location: Valencia (Spain)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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| j-dub wrote: |
On my car I have the 58 - 64 brakes front and rear. I have 22 mm wheel cylinders up front and 23.8mm super beetle wheel cylinders in the rear. Semi-metallic shoes all around and a 17mm single circuit master cylinder. The brakes are really pretty good, I am happy with the performance. This is the best combination I have found so far.
Shoes that match the arc of the drums is key, the first set of front semi-metallic shoes I got did not match well at all. For the price it was not worth the hassle of trying to sand them to match better. |
How is your brake pedal feel? Maybe it will work better with a 19mm or 21mm master
And where did you purchase the 22mm rear brake cylinders?
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j-dub
Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2003
Posts: 866
Location: Phoenix, AZ
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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The brake pedal feels good, very easy to modulate. Not like an on/off switch.
If I go to a larger master cylinder I would get a pedal that was like an on/off switch and I would also get less pressure at the brake shoe for the same pressure on the pedal. The bigger master cylinder would need less pedal stroke though.
I forgot to mention in the other post, I have had better luck with Varga branded parts over Centric branded parts.
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"POLICE STATION TOILET STOLEN ... Cops have nothing to go on." |
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Erik G
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002
Posts: 13317
Location: Tejas!
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| Posted: Thu Sep 17, 2020 1:08 pm Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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| 57BLITZ wrote: |
| bcrazy wrote: |
| Erik G wrote: |
| old trick someone taught me a long time ago. |
Ok, but why not both shoes "super stopper" ? |
That old trick (using brake linings of different compositions in the same drum) can be effective for vehicles equipped with "self-energizing" drum brakes. These brakes may also use different lining sizes for the 2 shoes in each drum, and are frequently "self-adjusting" by design.
Our air-cooled VWs do not have that type of brake design, so the advantage of using two different lining compositions at each wheel is pretty much nil. |
the semi metallics both eat the drums and don't stop as well cold, maybe wet too. One of each gets you stopping better and not eating your drums as much...
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Fern_b57
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2023
Posts: 14
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sat May 18, 2024 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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what's the actual part number for the aircooled super stopper cylinders?
the 22mm (113611057B) cylinders i bought pushes the 40mm shoes out , using 68 rear backing plates , on a 62 bug..
thank you |
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Fern_b57
Samba Member
Joined: November 05, 2023
Posts: 14
Location: Los Angeles
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| Posted: Sat May 18, 2024 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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| what's the actual part number for the aircooled super stopper cylinders? |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5558
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2024 7:48 am Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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| Fern_b57 wrote: |
what's the actual part number for the aircooled super stopper cylinders?
the 22mm (113611057B) cylinders i bought pushes the 40mm shoes out , using 68 rear backing plates , on a 62 bug..
thank you |
The wheel cylinders you bought are '58-'64 stock front. Since '58-'67 brakes are 40mm wide in the front and 30mm wide in the rear the spacing won't be right, as you have found. As near as I can tell there is no other wheel cylinder that will fit the '58-'64 brakes. '65-'67 wheel cylinders are the same bore as '58-'64. '68 and newer Beetle brakes are 40mm wide front and rear.
Changing wheel cylinder size changes brake balance and pedal effort, but doesn't really improve the brakes.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26876
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2024 10:26 am Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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68 and newer bugs the front and rear wheels cylinders and shoes should be the same and interchangeable.
So you would want to just use front wheel cylinders in the rear.
The wheel cylinder "pushes the shoes out"...... Isn't that what they are supposed to do? when you press the brake pedal? |
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EVfun
Samba Member
Joined: April 01, 2012
Posts: 5558
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2024 11:09 am Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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| modok wrote: |
68 and newer bugs the front and rear wheels cylinders and shoes should be the same and interchangeable.
So you would want to just use front wheel cylinders in the rear.
The wheel cylinder "pushes the shoes out"...... Isn't that what they are supposed to do? when you press the brake pedal? |
When he says "pushes the shoes out" he means to the left and to the right of the car. Wheel cylinder are machined where they fit against the backing plate to put the slot in the middle of the shoes. For '58 through '67 Beetle brakes that is a different dimension front and rear. The rear brakes are 30mm wide, the front 40mm wide. The rear wheel cylinders are machined where they fit to the backing plate to move the slot in 5mm.
'58-'67 Beetle rear brakes is the only use I'm aware of for 1 bolt wheel cylinders for 30mm wide shoes. '65-'67 drums can also be used, with some careful measuring, to run '68 up rear brakes, backing plates and all, with Beetle wide-5 drums. That would be an upgrade to 40mm wide rear brakes.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26876
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Sun May 19, 2024 11:48 am Post subject: Re: Improving stock drum brakes? 63 beetle |
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| Fern_b57 wrote: |
using 68 rear backing plates
thank you |
What I'm saying is he should compare front and rear brake parts and see what is different. They should be interchangeable.
Possibly he has superbeetle wheel cylinders or the backing plates are not from a 68
I have seen wheel cylinders packaged wrong before. |
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