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dunk
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2006
Posts: 162
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 Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 10:39 am Post subject: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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What do you do to yours?!
Ill start by throwing these out there! for sh@ts and giggles like....
Schadek make a nice pump. CB have some extra stuff done to theirs that is nice too. Berg anodize and o-ring.
Sometimes you don't have, or can't get any of those though!
Decking the pump to have minimal/exact clearence. Checking the tolerances of the parts are at least within manufacturers spec. All well known good things to do. Porting of the inlet is a known mod as well.
You can get a LOT of pressure out of a pump if you mod it... almost too much.. almost!...
Anyone tried any other ideas/mods? Do they work? |
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71busguy
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Joined: December 19, 2007
Posts: 17
Location: riverside
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 11:08 am Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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| very cool, new to modified oil pumps, could you explain the theory behind the modifications? |
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dunk
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2006
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:16 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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| 71busguy wrote: |
| very cool, new to modified oil pumps, could you explain the theory behind the modifications? |
I would say all the modifications in the above pics were done with the intent of..
A)giving the pump longevity! Allowing it to perform it's best for as long as possible, by giving extra lubrication paths, minimising leakage, and stopping excess wear.
B)giving the pump a little extra performance! If you engine is worn, or you have extra items in your oil system ( filter, cooler, etc) that can lower the pressure to the bearings... a few extra psi can be advantageous...
I'm sure others have more ideas. The above stuff is not new. The dimples for example were done by VW years ago.. not to the same extent.. but they did it... its just got lost and forgotten about in today's "make it cheaper!" world...
Also, imho making a smaller pump as efficient as possible, is better than just slapping in a lazy large pump.. |
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Brian_e
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Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3296
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 1:36 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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Good work.
Are you also pressing the drive tang into the cam slot as deep as possible? Not really a "pump" mod, but something that should be done to every pump in every engine.
I have had really good luck just ditching the pump cover gasket, and using ultra black instead. Without the paper gaskets, they are usually right at .003-.004" end play on the gears with no additional sanding.
This might be a good place to show any tricks to the full flow oil pump covers as well. I will see if I can dig up any pics of mine.
Brian
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APPLEGREENVW
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Joined: November 30, 2003
Posts: 2389
Location: Seekonk,Massachusetts USA
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chrisflstf
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Joined: February 10, 2004
Posts: 3450
Location: San Diego
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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| I never saw dimples on the gear teeth before. I assume that is to reduce friction? |
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BFB
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Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 3:33 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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Im all for modifying stuff but to play devils advocate, why? Most pumps put out plenty of pressure and ive torn down some high mileage engines with plenty of wear and never noticed an oil pump that had any issues except for some gear wear on the cover, and some tang wear at the cam. But how much of that could be from some dingus who was there before and didnt get shit right? I dunno.
Hey, maybe those gears should be drilled all the way through to make them lighter!!
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" - bdkw1 |
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zerotofifty
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Joined: December 27, 2003
Posts: 1579
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 3:51 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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never use the flat pump cover, use the ones with the bent up raised edges instead. the raised edges stiffen the cover a lot. even a 1/4 inch steel plate flat cover will bow out when the four cover nuts are torqued down. the stock cover does not bow.
I have proven with with a dial indicator, and watched the flat plate type bow out as the four nuts are torqued to spec. the bow was on the order of several thousandths of an inch, ( I did this many many years ago, I recall it was around 0.004 inch of bow or so) more than the paper gasket thickness!,, the stock cover does NOT bow, not even .001 of an inch. The bent lip on the stock cover is near half an inch high, so it really stiffens the cover to prevent bowing. You need that tall bent lip on the cover, dont be fooled by using a thick steel flat plate cover, they will bow.
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Brian_e
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Joined: July 28, 2009
Posts: 3296
Location: Rapid City, SD
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 3:57 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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Or just do it all correctly, and full flow the poor thing with a good stiff cast iron full flow pump cover.
Brian
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zerotofifty
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Joined: December 27, 2003
Posts: 1579
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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| Brian_e wrote: |
Or just do it all correctly, and full flow the poor thing with a good stiff cast iron full flow pump cover.
Brian |
Per my tests, that cast iron cover will have to be incredibly thick to resist bowing. I did these bow tests on several different covers, cast iron also bowed.
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RickS
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Joined: May 05, 2005
Posts: 430
Location: Speonk, NY
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| Posted: Fri Mar 22, 2024 6:36 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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| zerotofifty wrote: |
never use the flat pump cover, use the ones with the bent up raised edges instead. the raised edges stiffen the cover a lot. even a 1/4 inch steel plate flat cover will bow out when the four cover nuts are torqued down. the stock cover does not bow.
I have proven with with a dial indicator, and watched the flat plate type bow out as the four nuts are torqued to spec. the bow was on the order of several thousandths of an inch, ( I did this many many years ago, I recall it was around 0.004 inch of bow or so) more than the paper gasket thickness!,, the stock cover does NOT bow, not even .001 of an inch. The bent lip on the stock cover is near half an inch high, so it really stiffens the cover to prevent bowing. You need that tall bent lip on the cover, dont be fooled by using a thick steel flat plate cover, they will bow. |
What torque did you use on the cover nuts? |
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dunk
Samba Member
Joined: April 02, 2006
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 3:38 am Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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| chrisflstf wrote: |
| I never saw dimples on the gear teeth before. I assume that is to reduce friction? |
Yes, along those lines... the idea is they hold oil when the motor shuts down, and hopefully reduce wear on the cover plate or whatever they're up against, on start-up of the engine.
I have gone back inside a motor with this done and the cover plate was in beautiful condition.
Look at most new pump gears now... they have one dimple or diamond on each gear... Vw used to put more on their o.e. pumps back in the 70s.
To answer some other posts...
The how to hotrod book.. tells you how to do only one or two of these modifications..
Brian - good point on the drive tang... please post anything you got that you feel is relevant... that'd be awesome.
Why do it?! Why modify anything. For better performance and Longer life.
E.g. If I can mod a 21mm pump.. or cut down a 26mm one to 23?-24?! And mod that...to get me the correct oil pressure i want to see in a serious performance vw engine, I'm going to be getting horsepower back. Gotta be a win. Its not easy.. there's some r and d involved..but it WILL make a difference
Fyi The above o-rings work well too. Can really help with stopping leaks. I like nitrile.
I wonder if polishing the gears would be worth it? Or maybe a better oil pick up in the sump would allow the pump to work even better? |
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RWK
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Joined: June 24, 2009
Posts: 1349
Location: S.W. MI
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 7:20 am Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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Good tips, also make sure pump gear back lash and clearance to body is within spec, mic the pump OD also, lots of pumps I have checked are undersize.
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APPLEGREENVW
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Alstrup
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Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7229
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:25 am Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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Yes, but minor. But they crack. I will never use one. Quality heat treated aluminum with the reinforcement bar, as CSP do is about the best you can get. Also, when O ringing them at the face plate you can elliminate the gasket which makes the cover better supported and thus even sturdier.
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RickS
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Location: Speonk, NY
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zerotofifty
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2003
Posts: 1579
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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| RickS wrote: |
| zerotofifty wrote: |
never use the flat pump cover, use the ones with the bent up raised edges instead. the raised edges stiffen the cover a lot. even a 1/4 inch steel plate flat cover will bow out when the four cover nuts are torqued down. the stock cover does not bow.
I have proven with with a dial indicator, and watched the flat plate type bow out as the four nuts are torqued to spec. the bow was on the order of several thousandths of an inch, ( I did this many many years ago, I recall it was around 0.004 inch of bow or so) more than the paper gasket thickness!,, the stock cover does NOT bow, not even .001 of an inch. The bent lip on the stock cover is near half an inch high, so it really stiffens the cover to prevent bowing. You need that tall bent lip on the cover, dont be fooled by using a thick steel flat plate cover, they will bow. |
What torque did you use on the cover nuts? |
I used the factory manual torque specification. I set indicator in center of the cover plate. As the nuts first started to tighten the dial indicator went down as expect, but as I approached the factory torque value, the indicator started to raise up, indicating that the plate bowed up as the torque specification was approached. I recall it was on the order of 4 or so thousands of an inch bow up. This value exceeds the thickness of the cover gasket! I repeated this several times on each cover, same results each time. the ONLY covers that did NOT bow that I tested were the factory covers with the large raised edges on all four sides of the cover. This raised edge stiffened the cover and prevented any bowing. The flat steel plates bowed every single time, even though they we near 1/4 inch thick. This surprised me. A cast aluminum plate with ribs cast in also bowed, as the ribs ran in only one direction, they stiffened it in one direction, but not perpendicular to the ribs, this plate deformed in one direction, rather than both directions, but still that is a fail if one wants to maintain minimum gear to cover distance.
Another thing is do not fill the groove around the pump body with sealer, this ring of a groove has a little "return" groove to the low pressure side of the pump. thus any oil that does make it past the gasket will be intercepted by this groove ring, and presumably be sucked back into the low pressure side of the pump. A minor leak past the gasket can be prevented this way.
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zerotofifty
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Joined: December 27, 2003
Posts: 1579
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:55 am Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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I have tested this type for bow, it will bow perpendicular to the raised port section, but not parallel to this raised section. Ideally the raised section should be in a "cross" pattern, so that is stiffened in both the X and Y directions. (or have raised edges along all four sides)
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dunk
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Joined: April 02, 2006
Posts: 162
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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Yes.
I've used the pressure relief version before.
It's steel, which is nice.. definately feels heavy duty.. heavier than a berg cast iron one. I had the 3/8 npt which sealed fine.
No real dramas to report, worked as it should, sealed pretty good and the nickel plating is great. Stays pretty much rust free if you're careful with it. Unlike the cast iron covers. |
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BFB
Samba Member
Joined: November 03, 2014
Posts: 1762
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| Posted: Sat Mar 23, 2024 2:51 pm Post subject: Re: Oil pumps- Modifications? |
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| zerotofifty wrote: |
| RickS wrote: |
| zerotofifty wrote: |
never use the flat pump cover, use the ones with the bent up raised edges instead. the raised edges stiffen the cover a lot. even a 1/4 inch steel plate flat cover will bow out when the four cover nuts are torqued down. the stock cover does not bow.
I have proven with with a dial indicator, and watched the flat plate type bow out as the four nuts are torqued to spec. the bow was on the order of several thousandths of an inch, ( I did this many many years ago, I recall it was around 0.004 inch of bow or so) more than the paper gasket thickness!,, the stock cover does NOT bow, not even .001 of an inch. The bent lip on the stock cover is near half an inch high, so it really stiffens the cover to prevent bowing. You need that tall bent lip on the cover, dont be fooled by using a thick steel flat plate cover, they will bow. |
What torque did you use on the cover nuts? |
I used the factory manual torque specification. I set indicator in center of the cover plate. As the nuts first started to tighten the dial indicator went down as expect, but as I approached the factory torque value, the indicator started to raise up, indicating that the plate bowed up as the torque specification was approached. I recall it was on the order of 4 or so thousands of an inch bow up. This value exceeds the thickness of the cover gasket! I repeated this several times on each cover, same results each time. the ONLY covers that did NOT bow that I tested were the factory covers with the large raised edges on all four sides of the cover. This raised edge stiffened the cover and prevented any bowing. The flat steel plates bowed every single time, even though they we near 1/4 inch thick. This surprised me. A cast aluminum plate with ribs cast in also bowed, as the ribs ran in only one direction, they stiffened it in one direction, but not perpendicular to the ribs, this plate deformed in one direction, rather than both directions, but still that is a fail if one wants to maintain minimum gear to cover distance.
Another thing is do not fill the groove around the pump body with sealer, this ring of a groove has a little "return" groove to the low pressure side of the pump. thus any oil that does make it past the gasket will be intercepted by this groove ring, and presumably be sucked back into the low pressure side of the pump. A minor leak past the gasket can be prevented this way. |
You didnt say what you bolted the covers to when you did these measurements but i assume the case? . I find it hard to believe that theres much warping when the cover & pump body are bolted to and backed by the case, seems like a pretty rigid area. even if there is its apparently insignificant as ive never had any covers leak and dont recall tearing any down that had been leaking at the cover either.
_________________
Forced induction can overcome a lot of obsticles that gets in it's way
"You are the Engineer and the Mechanic.
Build it your way not the way someone else does it. Their way might not work for you." - clonebug
An interesting thing happens in forums where everyone starts parroting the same thing and "common knowledge" takes over.
The monkey see monkey do mentality seems to run deep in VW people. "Gene Berg said it was so 30 years ago so thats the way it is" - bdkw1 |
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