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Thu Jul 21, 2005 7:56 pm

Glenn wrote: I love a good fight.

Let's just keep it clean and to the facts.

No personal attacks or this topic is history... like some othe others.

Carry on.

so now you are deleting my posts before they can even be read? wow.

Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:13 pm

danimal wrote: Glenn wrote: I love a good fight.

Let's just keep it clean and to the facts.

No personal attacks or this topic is history... like some of the others.

Carry on.

so now you are deleting my posts before they can even be read? wow.

No personal attacks or this topic is history... like some of the others.

I'm not going to referee these fights. And if I ask Everett what he thinks, the topic will just be deleted.

If you want to start a personal attack... post a topic in the Rants. I'm not a moderator there.

Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:35 pm

Glenn wrote: danimal wrote: Glenn wrote: I love a good fight.

Let's just keep it clean and to the facts.

No personal attacks or this topic is history... like some of the others.

Carry on.

so now you are deleting my posts before they can even be read? wow.

No personal attacks or this topic is history... like some of the others.

I'm not going to referee these fights. And if I ask Everett what he thinks, the topic will just be deleted.

If you want to start a personal attack... post a topic in the Rants. I'm not a moderator there.

Thanks Glenn ... some folks just don't get it.

Thu Jul 21, 2005 8:38 pm

Yogi Berra wrote: It's like deja-vu, all over again.

Let's not repeat the same old stuff.

Does anyone have any new facts?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 9:43 pm

Glenn wrote: I'm not going to referee these fights. And if I ask Everett what he thinks, the topic will just be deleted.

of course everett will delete the topic/post when a paid samba advertiser gets himself into a jam out here.

i'm always up for a real tech discussion about head flow numbers and cam design, but it can't happen if people keep hiding those type 4 head flow numbers.

Thu Jul 21, 2005 10:41 pm

Dan, aren't you in business??

The samba is by far the largest internet group on line, so why don't YOU and OSV support it? After all you would be a "paid advertiser" and since your observation is that those get special privelages here- maybe you'd get the same??? You know you won't because you know that your claim is bullshit! Everywhere you go EXCEPT the CLF you start trouble and get the boot- Thats right danimal was banned from the STF for the same childish exhibitions as he presents here on a daily basis... On the CLF those guys love you because most of them get mentioned in your "productions"....

You give me hell for not supporting the PRA events and etc, when you don't even have the common courtesy to support the largest single gathering spot for the VW enthusiast- period. If you ask me thats pretty indicative of being self centered and greedy.

Head numbers are just one portion of an engine- sure they effect the power and the given power band, but they don't keep cases from cracking and bearings from spinning or main saddles from pounding.... What that means is that those glorious frigging head numbers don't mean a damn thing without a solid platform, capable of harnassing the power without negative repercussion delivered in sometime unbelievably short periods of time- even though dan won't tell you about those instances, the ones like his heads cracking on the Turbo engine. He will glare about those "100,00 mile 200 HP engines" but what he don't have is a fact of whether or not the builder tore that baby down in stealth mode every 6 weeks to freshen it up because he didn't want everyone to know that it wouldn't stay together for any longer period than that!

Dan bases his feelings on things like hearsay and opinion- not first hand experience or empirical data, sounds about as crude as a stone age writing tablet to me-

The TI's only edge is that the heads flow well with a lesser amount of work, but what good does that do if the engine can't be driven at modern speeds and beyond (as stated in Easy Rider's post) without having adverse effects.

Dan states that with the TIV we have to alter camshafft profiles to counter the inefficiency of the cylinder heads and his so-called, "crippled exhaust port".... Well fellas I also build 911 engines and those engines are exactly the same way....The heads are further optimized by a correct camshaft profile.... The flow numbers of many cylinder heads from Porsche 6 cylinder engines are amazingly low, but thats didn't stop those engines from winning their classes for years at Lemans- Did VW ever do that?? Hmmn, I can't recall a beetle being entered in the greatest 24 Hour endurance race of all time...... At the same time the 911 is seldom ever found on the dragstrip, because they are not designed to be there. Our closed minded little buddy danimal seems to compare everything in the world by its ability to blaze down the 1320' of glory as fast as it can with close ratio gears, not worth a damn for anything else....... Thats simply closed minded and down right dumb- I am a Road Race junkie because it presents all the things that one can find on "The Road" but in a much more exaggerated form enhanced with the speed factor.... Drag racing doesn't compare to anything that one might experience in a real time street situation, on a given day, in your car-- Not many roads in this country are absolutely straight !

I have said it before and I will say it again- The Performance TI is perfect for its intended purpose-hauling ass and I love them for that purpose as much as anyone. Sadly enough it can't support my style of driving without constant attention, while the TIV has time and again without fault, even when abused, neglected and purposely flogged..

There was a time when I was anti TIV as well, just like the time when I believed everything in the blue book and believed that synthetic oils didn't work and internal engine coatings were snake oil...... having an open mind and willingness to explore and observe has changed my views......

As once said by a very wise man- "Only a fool can't change his mind"....

Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:07 pm

Jake Raby wrote: If you ask me thats pretty indicative of being self centered and greedy.

so now you are calling me self-centered and greedy... it's a blatant personal attack on my character by a paid samba advertiser, let's see what glenn does about it.

i bet that you'd like him to delete the entire thread, wouldn't you?

Thu Jul 21, 2005 11:20 pm

Nope, not a personal attack at all- Its a fact because you have alreadu admitted that you have not supported the Samba in any way or form....

It was a statement, based upon the fact that you or OSV do not support the future of the VW on the samba.

oh, its a conspiracy- I forgot.

Open the wallet and help keep the samba going strong.

Now that the post is absolutely off topic, Glenn *might* close it- thats up to him....

Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:06 am

Totally unbiased reader opinion ...

Danimal, you're a trouble maker. Period. You do nothing to support this hobby by attacking and writting the things you write here. You may think this kind of behavior is funny and clever but honestly, it simply presents you in a VERY unfavorable light. People come to these forums for information and guidence. Reading your constant attacks neither guide nor inform. You're not funny, insightfull or wise. I dont know your age but assumming you're an adult, you probably will never "grow" out of this type of behavior so it's probably best to not socialize with people who have a structured value system and try their best to live by it. You ARE the proverbial bull in the china shop when it comes to social etiquette. Thats nothing to be proud of.

This post was obviously off topic and may never see the light of day but if it's still here in the morning, my apologies to the origenal author for taking up space. ( anybody wanna see how REAL people treat each other? Come over to the bay window forum. We're nice to each other.)

Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:20 am

Peepsalot wrote: I see there are many aftermarket engine kits available for the beetle. I'm wondering what the advantages of a Type I or Type IV would be. I read that the IV's have spin on oil filters and larger cooling fins for better cooling capacity. I guess the IV's can be made to have larger displacement too?
Would one or the other be better for turbocharging if I decide to go that route?
Of all the different displacement options available, these are just bored and stroked variations on either of just these two motor platfoms?
For example the engine kits sold on the gene berg site, what type are those even? I know Raby only does IV's now.

Hey Peepsalot :) BTW before I get started, to answer your Q in another thread: Yeh I tried ice in the chargecooler once at a drag strip, the effects were VERY noticable. It was suprising that by the end of the run the water was warm, THATS how much heat it took out of the intake charge :shock:

The Type4 v Type1 debate is one of those debates that seems to rage in lots of fields e.g. big block vs small block, 2stroke vs 4stroke for enduro dirt bikes, etc etc. My advice is to listen to the people who have experience of BOTH engines (i.e. the ones that can directly compare the 2), in various applications (not just drag racing) and to take the 'other' opinions with a pinch of salt. Also, I don't know if you're new to the forum but if you are here's a quick heads up on Jake and Danimal

Jake : Builds and sell engines 'n parts, has experience of both Type1 and Type4, but is a big advocate of Type4's. As he is a vendor, obviously bare this in mind when reading his posts as they could be construde as being biased. However I 'personally' beleive he's sincere in his posts but that's a judgement you must make in time.

Danimal : Films VW shows and drag racing and sells these tapes. He does NOT build engines, and has certainly never built, driven or owned a Type4 powered VW. Most, if not all, his posts are based on anything but his direct experiences. So why does he post so much in a Performance Engine forum and in every other forum he can get into? Simple.... free marketing! He jumps at EVERY chance he can to raise his public profile in order to sell more videos (obviously thats just my theory - but it all stacks up to me :lol: )

Anyway.....on to the good stuff:

I've had lots of Type1 and Type4 motors in the past and at present, and as Tuna mentioned, it's a case of 'horses for courses'. Which engine suits your wallet and application. And as Jake pointed out, I very rarely here anyone that's gone to Type4 powerplant and then goes back to Type1. I'm not going to go into the details of what I think are the merits of both engines I'm purely gonna give you my direct experience.

My bug: This has had various Type4 motors in it since 13 years ago, starting from when I was skint in college but wanted a more powerful motor (as everyone does at that age), at the time it had a 1776cc Type1. I was going to go 1.9l Type1 but then I drove a guys bug in the club that had a 'nearly' stock 2.0l Type4, the pull and drivability was exactly what I was after. I sourced a secondhand running 2.0l for £80, reconditioned the heads, added an exhaust, Dellorto's and an upright kit from Germany and have never looked back since. As you know...I currently have a 2366cc supercharged Type4 knocking out in excess of 200hp with approx 30,000 miles on it with all stock internals apart from the cam and B&P's.

My off-road racer - I race in the UK Short Course OffRoad Racing series which I am currently winning the aircooled class against an all Type1 engined field, apart from mine. The class is limited to 2.0l and has various Type1 combos upto 1914cc running in it. Some of these guys have sunk thousand of ££££ into their engines. I, on the otherhand, bought a seized 1.8l Type4 for £20, bought some 96mm B&Ps chucked on a set of Dellortos and a FAT exhaust, total cost £400 and am now winning the series. I've not had any breakdowns at all (yet...), but have seen numerous Type1 engined buggies breakdown and blow. The reason why I can beat these guys isn't cos I've got more hp, I honestly don't think I have, it's all about where the power is and the shape of the torque curve. e.g. I can go round a tight corner in second and out accelerate a Type1 powered buggy every time out of the corner, and up-hill and in rough conditions, the only place they start catching me is at the end of a straight (but I'm sure I could resolve this with an aftermarket cam), by which time it's too late.

These aren't my opinions this is my direct (race proven) experience...and this is the short version.. :lol:

Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:35 am

Dan,

I'm not going to join in on the T1 vs T4 battle, but you are clueless to how things work here.

Let me first say that Everett Barnes is the most impartial, fair and level headed person i've met. With all the "personalities" that exist here, he always acts fair and even handed. If for one second you think he's take a person's financial support of the Samba into account you are sadly mistaken. Even the moderators have been corrected.

If you think i'm not fair.. complain to him. Maybe he'll override me... but i doubt it.

As far as Jake attacking you... I think a "steel cage" match at a VW show would settle it. Charge $5 per person and donate the cash to charity.

Deleting this is your usuall MO. You attack, he responds, you call unfair and eventually it gets deleted.

I rather lock this thread and leave it so we can refer back the next time there's a T1 vs T4.

Quote:
Main Entry: im·par·tial
Pronunciation: (")im-'pär-sh&l
Function: adjective
: not partial or biased : treating or affecting all equally
synonym see FAIR

One last thing... I've only had Type 1 engines. I never even worked on a Type 4 so I have nothing productive to add and I take no sides.

Oh yeah... :roll:

Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:00 am

I don't know as much as alot of others about what makes these engines better or worse. However I can share my experience with driving my own T4. In short I am very happy with it. As for power, it throws you back in the seat anywhere between 2K and 5K in 3rd gear. 2nd gear is totally insane, so I don't mess with it much. It revs to 6500 easily, and the inferierior heads stay at I nice 325 deg in 100 deg weather. On a good hill I can get them up to 375 if I really try to over heat. It does all this and makes a modest 150 HP. I can retard the timing and get 163 Hp and teorwtically it will make better times at the 1/4 mile, but it doesn't feel as fast as the 150 where it has much more snap in the mid range. You do not drive head flow numbers, and usually you do not drive HP

As far as which one is best, Its not like one is bad. Neither engine is inherently a bad engine. If you read read read, you will be able to decide what is best for your wishes and be able to determine whose ideas are valid, and backed up with the most testing, and experience. These kind of threads never go too far before it becomes obvious who has back up and who has nothing more than an agenda. I have somewhat of an agenda myself, and I am going to be driving it in a few minits. :D

Ron

Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:14 am

glenn, i'm not going to complain about anything, because his name-calling is a testament to his character... thank you for leaving things just as they are.

so now we have some type 4 people attacking me, but no one has been able to post any type 4 head flow data.

i'll go ahead and post the type 1 head flow data for peepsalot, since that thread probably got modded:

Stock Dual Port
25" of water
lift__I__E=E/I ratio
.050_18_16=88%
.100_36_34=94%
.150_52_48=92%
.200_70_60=86%
.250_82_68=83%
.300_86_72=84%
.350_91_80=88%
.400_94_80=85%
.450_96_82=85%
.500_99_82=83%

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:19 pm

Dan-

Why don't you explain what these numbers mean to those on the forum that are not engine designers...

Explain why they are so important and what effects them... I would like to see that- coming from a videographer like yourself......

Who's flow bench was used for this data and why are they only at 25" when the industry standard is 28" depression??? Also was this data manually logged or acquisitioned with computer assistance, if manually logged where is the corection factors from that day????

Also, why are you posting numbers from stock heads when the conversation at hand is primarly centered around Performance engine here in this thread?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:45 pm

i'm still waiting for those type 4 head flow numbers.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 12:52 pm

For what?

In the mean time why don't you technically explain the numbers you posted- after all they were your numbers.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 1:14 pm

"in the mean time?" lol...

i would really like it if you tried posting bogus numbers, btw :lol:

Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:20 pm

Quote: "in the mean time?" lol...
Yeah, while you are waiting for that video to rewind-

Dan, you would like it if I psted ANY numbers- There will be no numbers posted because the information is irrelevent.

Spend your money, buy a Type IV head and have it flowed by one of your buddies- if you want the data.

It is apparent that you only intend to coherse me to post these numbers to continue your childish behavior.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 2:43 pm

I can fart out 75% of what I breath in. Does that make me better than someone who can't? I challange anyone to sit beside me on a flow bench! :D New kind of bench racing?

Ron

Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:33 pm

Damn, that was funny! Thanks for making my day, Ron!

And don't forget to Buckle Up for Safety!

Max