TheSamba.com :: View topic

Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:34 pm

lol... that missing 25% has to be going somewhere!

hey jake, if type 4 flow bench numbers are "irrelevant", how come you refuse to post 'em?

and who said that i don't have any type 4 flow bench numbers :twisted:

Fri Jul 22, 2005 3:42 pm

There are 25+ different Type IV cylinder heads, so make sure you have the number and suffix of the heads you have the numbers for..... They'll probably be small valved smog heads from a Bus- Not made for flow anyway.....

Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:36 pm

werent they posted in one of these same threads about 6 months ago?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:47 pm

Nope.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:49 pm

no one has ever posted a full set of stock type 4 head flow numbers to this forum before.

the subject has come up many times, but the people who sell type 4 parts always refuse to share that information, because it proves just how much of a pig motor the type 4 really is.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:28 pm

headflow masters is pretty well known for doing up t4 heads, and with a name like headflow masters, im sure he has some numbers lying around.
you should call him :)

Fri Jul 22, 2005 5:44 pm

What is the big deal about flow numbers of a stock head ? Not many people Type 1 or 4 are using stock heads on their hot rod engine ! So why do you want them posted so bad Dan ? Jake doesn't use a stock head and as much as I've read , never said he did , so why not quit whinning about stock flow numbers ! TROY

Fri Jul 22, 2005 6:07 pm

type1 or type4 if they make the same power to the wheels what say one is better than the other
i have a type one with over 300hp to the wheels and i have also done 300+ hp type4 engine's to it all come's down to how much you need to spend to make this hp EFI turbo on the to engine's

Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:09 pm

bug man nrg wrote: type1 or type4 if they make the same power to the wheels what say one is better than the other
i have a type one with over 300hp to the wheels and i have also done 300+ hp type4 engine's to it all come's down to how much you need to spend to make this hp EFI turbo on the to engine's
How much difference does electronic fuel injection really make? Is it that far off from a well tuned carb?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 7:26 pm

Its all according to engine specifics.. In my current testing I have seen some big differences both ways....

There is a thread on the CLF running about it now and I shared some of my current findings.

You can see it here
http://www.cal-look.com/forum/index.php?topic=4546.0

Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:05 pm

Teeroy wrote: What is the big deal about flow numbers of a stock head ? Not many people Type 1 or 4 are using stock heads on their hot rod engine ! So why do you want them posted so bad Dan ? Jake doesn't use a stock head and as much as I've read , never said he did , so why not quit whinning about stock flow numbers ! TROY

both you and bug man nrg are thinking that type 1 heads and type 4 heads have basically the same performance potential, but that assumption is very very wrong.

type 4's always use stock heads, there is no cost-effective performance aftermarket head for the type 4... the crippled exhaust port on stock type 4 heads cannot be corrected to make as much power per cc as the type 1 head, which is why nobody drag races a type 4... jake raby knows this, but he doesn't want you to know it, which is why he won't post those stock type 4 head flow numbers.

the further proof of that is in the heads that he has on that 3-liter motor of his... afaik, they do NOT have a type 4 exhaust port, or even a type 4 intake port, for that matter... he had to do a complete head re-design to make any decent power... now do you understand?

jake got his ass keelhauled on the clf a few days ago because his 3-liter motor did not make any decent power in his dyno test, but based on the head flow numbers he has been spouting off, it could improve drastically... whether it is cost-effective or not is going to be a huge problem, tho.

what i want to know is how bore centers compare between the type 4 and the wasserboxer case, so you wouldn't be stuck using that bastard offset type 4 head stud pattern.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:17 pm

http://www.aussieveedubbers.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=40171&page=2

T4 76 X 103 that runs 12.15 @ 108. It is in Australia - does that count ?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 8:53 pm

I sense a different tone to the last few posts by danimal... It might just be me...

All of this stuff does motivate me to do more and do it at a faster pace...

I'll be pulling the 3 Liter next week to make the mods that will unlock other doors..

Before dans last few shenanigans I was going to wait till after the run offs to do this- Thanks Dan!

Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:16 pm

12.15@108 works for me! i couldn't log on to see the car, is it all steel?

Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:18 pm

Jake Raby wrote: I sense a different tone to the last few posts by danimal... It might just be me...

...Before dans last few shenanigans I was going to wait till after the run offs to do this- Thanks Dan!

I noticed also. See... we can all play nice.

Thanks guys.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:22 pm

danimal wrote: which is why nobody drag races a type 4... jake raby knows this, but he doesn't want you to know it, which is why he won't post those stock type 4 head flow numbers.

Who the hell cares about drag racing???? Straight lines are for fast cars...curves are for fast drivers. :wink: I could care less how fast your car can do a 1/4 in, albeit nice you can run an 11....but if you can't drive it down the street...yeah, that's shit IMO.

Why the hell would you waste the handling characteristics of a beetle to go straight anyways????? What a waste.

In anycase, I'm on the fence with small turbo'd type 1 or a very mild type 4.... so I enjoy reading about both.....although, I'm seeming to find your posts rather redundant about a crippling exhaust port....what else is there? ATM, Jake's posts are a bit more informative than yours....

Fri Jul 22, 2005 9:51 pm

Quote from that thread -

engine is 76x103 with 48x38 heads exhast is 13/4 that i made from a box of mandrel bends through a 21/2 magna flow muffler
has a pair of 48idas with 44mm venturis and 9.5:1 comp
no idea on the cam it has no markings
i bought the moter very cheap (ex offroad car) just freshened it raised the comp got rid of the idfs carbs- no idea how it ran before the jets were very small- i put the carbs on a mild 1916 and had to increase jet sizes
i 'm going to pull it down some time in the future and go a bit hotter in the cam with more comp

All steel

On the gearing -

motor only needs to be reved to 6000 so the gear ratos are as follows
1st 3.1, 2nd 2.0, 3rd 1.48, 4th 1.04 with a 26inch tall slick and a 4.125c/w- at 108mph its right on 6000rpm it was built of all 2nd hand bits laying around-- 1st & 2nd from keith hausler, 3rd& 4th &super diff from a trade in box- lucky because because 2nd hand boxes normally get thrown on the rack outside never to be seen again, swayaway axles were new- that hurt.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:44 pm

oicdn, check out www.turbobobefi.com

adrian, 12.15 out of a bucket full of type 4 parts is xlnt, and you built the tranny as well... you should be hanging out on the clf, not here! thanks for sharing the info on the car.

Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:50 pm

Alright, since we've got the differences in I/E ratios, lets talk about some of the other areas where the T4 has strengths over the T1. Off the top of my head, I came up with the following:

First of all, the T1 is based on a design from the 1930's, whereas the T4 is based on a design from the 1960's.

Aluminum Case

Increased Cooling Capacity

Bigger Sump

A Real Oil Filter

Better Pushrod Tubes

Better Rocker Arms

More Stock Displacement

Bigger Bearings

Case Through bolts instead of studs

Flywheel Bolts instead of a Gland Nut and dowels

Stronger Crank

Stronger Rods (though this would be irrelevant in either engine if aftermarket rods were used)

Bigger Valves (though this would also be irrelevant in either engine unless stock valve sizes would be used)

More power (stock) than a T1 in stock configuration

No junk T4 aftermarket parts (yet)

Anyone else feel free to add anything to the list that I couldn't think of. Now that should give us plenty of new material to discuss, besides cracked heads and I:E ratios

Daniel

Fri Jul 22, 2005 10:54 pm

Dan,

not my car (unfortunately)... Adam Debiasi is the guy who built it and runs it.