TheSamba.com :: View topic - Homemade Turbo 1600 Single Port recipe, DYNO'ED, NOW T3/T4!!

Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:15 pm

VERY general cost breakdown:

Garrett T25 Turbo:
Used from Mitsubishi Eclipse off Ebay-$70
Carbon Seal Rebuild Kit-$106 delivered
Grainger Valve-$10
Total: $190

Holley 390 4 barrel:
Used from Ebay-$115 Didn't need a rebuild!
50cc pump kit-$50
Air filter assembly from Summit clearance sale-$25
Intake tubing from local muffler shop-$10
EMPI end castings new from Archway Imports-$40
Total: $240

Holley Red Fuel Pump:
Had from previous project (they're about $115 new?)

Exhaust:
Ding-and-dent special baja header from Mid-America Funfest-$10 That I cut up for bits, pieces and flanges.
Three 2.5" mandrel bends from local store: $35
Flanges for muffler-$10
Muffler is stainless Dynomax straight-through 2.5" from local ricer off Craigslist-$10
Total: $65

MSD and BTM:
MSD 6A new-in-box (!!) from local hot-rodder on Craigslist-$120
BTM used from Ebay-$50
Total: $170

Gauges:
Summit tach, new-$50
Boost and A/F, used from local Craigslist-$40
Denso O2 sensor-$25
Total: $120

Misc. hose, clamps, welding wire and such:
Total: $100?

I rounded-up all the totals.

Grand total: about $900

Some folks might find the MSD stuff unnecessary but I think it's a necessity that makes street driving AWESOME....hell, it's daily-driver reliable!
No MSD? Subtract $150
Then again, a new MSD from somewhere like Summit is well over $300 so shop around!!

If I think of anything else, I'll update it.
but that's it in a nutshell.

LOTS of trial-and-error labor and shopping around!
Gotta do-it-yourself!

Best of luck, folks.

Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:33 pm

Hello all,
It's been over nine months since my last update.
Believe it or not, "The Single Port That Won't Die" is still going strong.
What have I been up to?

1. It's been to 20 PSI with NO PROBLEMS :shock: except for eating the clutch (see below for that).
To go 20 PSI, I changed to a blend of 110 leaded/93 premium 50/50 and I'm NEVER going back to straight 93 octane!
I'm now able to run 35 degrees total off boost (the motor LOVES that!) and only 1/2 degree retard per lb. of boost!
For comparison's sake: in the summer on pump gas, I could only running 30 degrees total and 1 degree retard per lb. of boost!
Until I get a stronger clutch, I dialed it back to 15 PSI :(

2. Muffler is gone forever. Elbow exiting the turbo and pointing downward. Sounds "just right"....VERY deep and not too loud at all.

3. Ahh...the clutch.....the combo was doing alright at 15 PSI on pump gas (20 degrees retard) but once I turned up the boost to 20, added race fuel and added timing, it went away immediately. SO.....I installed a Kennedy Stage 1 and Daikin disc. Nope. Drove right over it.....although I could drive harder longer before it'd let go-shortly after the shift into third under WOT everytime. :x Thank goodness for the 5200 chip in my 6AL!! :wink:
Next step? Stage 2 pressure plate and new disc (I'm sure the other is SMOKED!).

I'm sure it sounds hard to believe but all I've done is change oil, adjust valves and drive it every chance I get.
And trust me, I beat it relentlessly every chance I get.
It's impossible to resist! There is NO driving experience in the world like having a boosted air-cooled VW in the back of a featherweight Manx body buggy, folks.
I find every excuse in the world to take it out for a spin.

I can't emphasize enough that I believe the reason it survives is I always keep an eye on timing, fuel, valve adjustment and oil condition.

Turbos RULE!

Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:47 pm

Thanks for the update, good to hear from you again and glad your engine is still alive and kicking. So often people say "I'll keep you posted or updated" and you never hear from them again. So.......keep us updated! :D

Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:51 pm

My plan was to get that Kennedy clutch installed and get some chassis dyno time!
There is a new dyno about 6 miles from here.
BUT it'd be a waste of my time and money to take it there now since you know that clutch would let go in spectacular fashion on the rollers. :evil:

The dyno owner can't wait to see it over there. Neither can I!

Trust me, I'll post THOSE results the moment I get 'em. :wink:

Wed Oct 22, 2008 7:55 pm

Dyno it - YES! :twisted:

I would think a Stage 2 would be adequate, especially since it's such a light vehicle.

Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:27 pm

Way to go... Nice to see it still holding together. I have been very quiet with my 2110 singleport, busy summer with my dad passing away, and a new holley carb that has to be tunned correctly, I still got 16 passes on my engine though, not a single pass was good though, this carb is driving me nuts.

Keep it up, I like to hear about singleports.

Kevin

Fri Oct 24, 2008 6:36 am

what compression are you running with that stock cam?

Fri Oct 24, 2008 7:09 am

I like that header.

Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:43 pm

Compression:
Best I can guess, it's about 7.4-7.6:1.
Uncut heads and case and a .060" barrel shim per cylinder.

Header:
Taint purdy but it does the trick. :lol:
It's amazing how much of an improvement that wrap made.
The wrap was a freebie-found a roll in the dumpster at work.
We use it on steam lines in the plant. :wink:

Fri Oct 24, 2008 2:52 pm

Great news!

I scored a direct-replacement .45 A/R turbine housing!

It's from an automatic tranny turbo Eclipse.
My present housing is from a manual-a .49 A/R.
Not a HUGE change but a piece-of-cake swap and quite possibly a solid 300 rpm lower boost starting point!

I'm trading an old T25 I have laying in my garage for it. Sweet.
That'll help spool it up a bit faster!
I'll ship the T25 tomorrow and, if all goes well, I may have the housing late next week or early the following week.

I can't wait !

Sat Oct 25, 2008 5:09 pm

im really into the Eclipse/DSM scene, I have a stock 14B turbo, off of the 1st Gens, that Im considering slapping on my bug.

As far as the T25, we call them T-too small, it amazes me how you're not killing that turbo going past 15 PSI!!!! :shock:

Imagine how it would run with a 16G turbo.... OH GOD!!!

Sun Oct 26, 2008 5:14 am

laynbdyon20s wrote: im really into the Eclipse/DSM scene, I have a stock 14B turbo, off of the 1st Gens, that Im considering slapping on my bug.

As far as the T25, we call them T-too small, it amazes me how you're not killing that turbo going past 15 PSI!!!! :shock:

Imagine how it would run with a 16G turbo.... OH GOD!!!

Trust me, I've toyed with a better flowing turbo-on a daily basis! :lol:
BUT...with my small displacement and limited RPM range, I have to walk a fine line with turbo lag.

The T25 has performed FLAWLESSLY!
Maybe it's "T-too small" for that mega-flowing, twin-cam-headed, high-rpm 2.0 you DSM guys are modding.
But for my caveman-simple, poor-flowing-singleport-headed, tractor-like-RPM 1600, it fits the bill just fine at a fair price.
You DSM folks practically throw them away so we oddballs can snatch 'em up cheap and put 'em on all kinds of frankenstein combos. :P

Truthfully? My motor would be MUCH snappier with a smaller turbo.
BUT.....as I've found, the smaller the turbo, the more expensive they get!
AND getting a wee turbo that has a carbon seal available is tricky.

As for the 20PSI:
I have a turbo map for mine and at 20PSI, it's definitely on the high side of impeller speed BUT just inside the 70% efficiency range-about 78%, if memory serves me right.
20PSI is the present limit anyway-that's as far as my Grainger boost control valve can go. Good!
Any 20PSI my motor sees is short bursts-peaks before shifts in seconds.
I'm not doing any long-term durability runs.
I wouldn't doubt if it'd grenade at that point.

Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:44 am

MO Turbo Manx wrote: .....as I've found, the smaller the turbo, the more expensive they get!
AND getting a wee turbo that has a carbon seal available is tricky.

I have a T02 from a auto trans Pontiac Sunbird, which should use the same CHRA parts as the -25/8 family of turbos. According to the web, it should be a TB0239, as I removed it from a running '85 1.8L car. It's not the smallest turbo I have, but I don't think you'd care to go any smaller than this anyway!

Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:38 am

miniman82 wrote: I have a T02 from a auto trans Pontiac Sunbird, which should use the same CHRA parts as the -25/8 family of turbos. According to the web, it should be a TB0239, as I removed it from a running '85 1.8L car. It's not the smallest turbo I have, but I don't think you'd care to go any smaller than this anyway!

That T02 is a rare bird!
A turbo auto. trans. Pontiac Sunbird? WOW!
Where in the WORLD did you find that thing? :shock:
You're right, that probably would have been the smallest I'd want to use.
But had I had access to one....I probably would have at least given it a shot.
Will that T02 accept the same carbon seal as the T25 or is one available specifically for it?

The reason I went with the Eclipse T25 is it's durable, plentiful, parts are readily available and overall (for the most part) it's inexpensive.

Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:21 pm

MO Turbo Manx wrote: That T02 is a rare bird! A turbo auto. trans. Pontiac Sunbird? WOW! Where in the WORLD did you find that thing? :shock:

Yes, it is sort of a unique item, itself being part of a rare car ('rare bird' is a bit of a pun, being that the car was a Sunbird!). I've never seen another before or since; the one I found was in Pick 'N Pull Fresno, CA. I would have had one from a Grand Am as well, but someone got to it before I could. That Grand Am had some very nice looking forged pistons in it, I should have grabbed them! Even though they had been sitting outside in the elements for some time, they looked like shiny new JE's, or something. They are 4" pistons, so they would have made it into my T4 engine....oh well.

MO Turbo Manx wrote: You're right, that probably would have been the smallest I'd want to use.

You'd probably have off-idle boost response, even with a singleport. :lol:
I have a smaller one from a Fiat Punto 1.9JTD, it's an IHI VL20. VL20 turned out to be a version of the RHF-3 dual ball-bearing turbo, so score! Bad thing is it's probably the size turbo you'd expect to see on a Kubota 3-cylinder tractor engine, it's TINY!!

MO Turbo Manx wrote: But had I had access to one....I probably would have at least given it a shot.

It has the same flange as the 25/8's, I believe. No one said you couldn't give it a shot... I was planning on using it for my turbo 3-cylinder Geo Metro/Mini Cooper transplant engine, but if the price is right anything's possible.

MO Turbo Manx wrote: Will that T02 accept the same carbon seal as the T25 or is one available specifically for it?

I'm pretty sure they share CHRA architecture, but don't quote me. Some of these early turbos (early 80's) came with the carbons seals in them, like the early Chrysler Turbo1 engines, so who knows?

Tue Oct 28, 2008 2:17 pm

MO Turbo Manx wrote: laynbdyon20s wrote: im really into the Eclipse/DSM scene, I have a stock 14B turbo, off of the 1st Gens, that Im considering slapping on my bug.

As far as the T25, we call them T-too small, it amazes me how you're not killing that turbo going past 15 PSI!!!! :shock:

Imagine how it would run with a 16G turbo.... OH GOD!!!

Trust me, I've toyed with a better flowing turbo-on a daily basis! :lol:
BUT...with my small displacement and limited RPM range, I have to walk a fine line with turbo lag.

The T25 has performed FLAWLESSLY!
Maybe it's "T-too small" for that mega-flowing, twin-cam-headed, high-rpm 2.0 you DSM guys are modding.
But for my caveman-simple, poor-flowing-singleport-headed, tractor-like-RPM 1600, it fits the bill just fine at a fair price.
You DSM folks practically throw them away so we oddballs can snatch 'em up cheap and put 'em on all kinds of frankenstein combos. :P

Truthfully? My motor would be MUCH snappier with a smaller turbo.
BUT.....as I've found, the smaller the turbo, the more expensive they get!
AND getting a wee turbo that has a carbon seal available is tricky.

As for the 20PSI:
I have a turbo map for mine and at 20PSI, it's definitely on the high side of impeller speed BUT just inside the 70% efficiency range-about 78%, if memory serves me right.
20PSI is the present limit anyway-that's as far as my Grainger boost control valve can go. Good!
Any 20PSI my motor sees is short bursts-peaks before shifts in seconds.
I'm not doing any long-term durability runs.
I wouldn't doubt if it'd grenade at that point.

true, I guess the T25 would benefit you since its starts to spool almost instanly.

We do throw them away actually, since the T25's pretty much reach there peak at about 5500 RPM.

I myself am running a 20G on my DSM and that thing doesnt hit until about 4K, and I'll be getting rid of that soon, once I get a GT35 Ball Bearing turbo.

Im glad to hear that the T25 is benefiting someone!!! Also maybe the turbos on the starions should help with spooling issues, there smaller than the T25's. I think they are a 13B or something.

I should start selling T25's to bug guys!!!

Tue Oct 28, 2008 7:14 pm

laynbdyon20s wrote:
true, I guess the T25 would benefit you since its starts to spool almost instanly.

We do throw them away actually, since the T25's pretty much reach there peak at about 5500 RPM.

I should start selling T25's to bug guys!!!

The thing is, my wee motor doesn't push enough exhaust to spin the T25 up as fast as those 2.0's can.

Mine starts to boost right at 2500 and climbs quickly from there.

As for the 5500 RPM threshold you mentioned, it's all a matter of airflow.
5500 might be "it" for a T25 on the Mitsu 2.0 but not for small displacement VW's.

As long as the prices stay fair, they're a good choice.
If not, there are a sea of other choices out there.

My .45 turbine housing should be here early next week.
Man, I cannot wait!

Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:29 pm

140.9HP @ 5237RPM
158TQ @ 4555 RPM
13.2 @ 109.44MPH on the rollers

I drove it to the dyno and drove it home.
No fuss, no problems.
20 PSI boost and let's just say it was the hit of the day.

A local shop installed a Mustang chassis dyno and had their open house today.
I was the first car on the rollers this morning about 9:45AM.

I'm so excited I can hardly contain myself.
FAR beyond my expectations.....especially the torque and that 1/4 mile!

Here's some food for thought:
1. Figuring drivetrain losses: am I at 160HP and 170 TQ at the flywheel?
No wonder my Stage 1 Kennedy is begging for mercy!
2. How much HP does a stock 1600cc single port make? 53??
Think about that....I TRIPLED the stock HP with only single hi-rev springs, bolt-together rocker shafts, 1.25 rockers, swivel feet and...drum roll please....20 PSI boost! :twisted:
Scary but WAY too much fun.

Graph and text results below.
I do not have a scanner so they are pictures.

Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:06 pm

Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:13 pm

Absolutely amazing, it is hard to believe this is a 1600 single port and it has lasted this long! Thanks for sharing :)
Jeff