TheSamba.com :: View topic - GL 4 or GL 5

Sun Nov 11, 2012 11:56 pm

Everyone knows VWs will blow up if you fit EFI or turbocharging, no matter what oil you use! :D

Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:01 am

Glenn wrote: I like John C., but disagree with some of the info he has on is site.

Wildthings wrote: A modern (typically expensive) GL-5 is probably going to be fine,
Wow... do you really say that?

BTW... I don't consider Valvoline gear lube as expensive.

I have never said anything different, I have clearly said it is the plain Jane formulations that are questionable to use, while you have claimed that all GL-5 have been reformulated.

Oh and by the way, which of the following is a fairy tale and which is the truth?

Glenn wrote: I've been using Swepco 201 80W-90 GL/5 and MT-1 for the past 40,000 miles. Gary said the syncros were "somewhat worn", so we decided to REPLACE them.
Glenn wrote: My tranny was being rebuilt after 40,000 due to input shaft bearing noise and a few broken teeth on the spider gears. The syncros were fine and REUSED.

Thu Nov 15, 2012 1:42 am

found this,

http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/mtf.aspx

getting confused with so many types Amsoil is selling. this oil is not listed in John's site. also doesnt say if it is gl4 or gl5.

Fri Nov 16, 2012 2:13 pm

It is nice that it has such a low figure on the copper strip test, but it is a gearbox oil. In the VW we have a transaxle with the diff in the same oil.

I think you should choose something designed for extreme pressure, even if it's MdS2 is a bit higher.

I know, it is very confusing ya wanna talk to this oil company scientist I know, he'll leave you blubbing your bottom lip. Trouble is, I don't think the marketing guys in this rather large company actually understand what these scientist guys have to say...

Wed Nov 28, 2012 4:45 am

Here's a bit of a tip for anyone wanting straight 90W GL4 oil, (thanks Rick/60ragtop) try Farm/Ranch stores for this stuff. These are about 27 bucks for a TWO gallon jug. Sta-lube GL4 was about 10 bucks per quart when I saw it last at NAPA, so 8 quarts for 27 is a bargain in comparison. The main drawback is that 90W rating for those who drive in colder climates.

Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:16 pm

http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Articles/Print/28958

The Effects of EP Additives on Gearboxes..use the engineering specification that the manufacturer recommends. Simple enough.

Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:46 pm

AtlasShrugged wrote: http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Articles/Print/28958

The Effects of EP Additives on Gearboxes..use the engineering specification that the manufacturer recommends. Simple enough.

As this thread has already shown, it's not really that simple. Those who are CURRENTLY in the business of rebuilding ACVW gearboxes have made their recommendations based on what they see in the cores...use the newer GL5. That is the most important recommendation to consider, since lightly used ACVW gearboxes, and good cores, are becoming rarer.

VWAG as a manufacturer is not rebuilding ACVW gearboxes anymore, to my knowledge, so their 40-year-old GL4 recommendation isn't much use to us anymore...

Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:18 pm

Use any gear lube you please, but the specs are the specs. I you want to test a GL5 lube to see if it compatible with a GL4 spec transmission, use the copper strip corrosion test (ASTM D130) as described in the link. Easy to do at home. Might be kind of fun.

GL5 was not a replacement API spec for GL4, like for example API spec SM engine oil to replace and supersede SN spec engine oil. It is a different additive blend. Both GL4 and GL5 are still available. GL4 is not an obsolete or "old" spec.

Without testing you don't know if the GL5 is compatible. It depends on the additives used in blending the gear oil. It might be OK..it might not. Depends on the manufacturer of the gear oil.

The corrosion test will tell you.

Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:38 am

do you know what page the crossion test is on so I dont have to try to read through all of the pages, it is well known I cant spell so it stands to reason I cant read either. and wouldent a better test be a syncro ring and not a copper strip? or do these trans have copper strips in them for some reason.so what all does it affect? as far as the spec codes on the oil I dont think they mean a lot, yes there good guidelines,and by a major manufacture they should be great, but like the wallmart branded oils they also have the specs but the oil is /was shit(yes I know it's walmart & you get what you deserve if you buy that crap,but still they have the spec and the oil is junk)(I havent had any expearance with thier gear lube, only thier 2stroke engine killing oil &piles of mfg warrantyed engines tracked back to the wallmart oil used) So who is keeping tabs on what works&what dont? might be kinda hard in a trans. and who is testing this oil to see if it is what it says it is??and does that make a differance? Ive been running pensoil marine synthetic witch is also api gl5. Ive only had 3 trans in my car in 12 years,first had a bearing noise and went for 4 years like that(I dont know how long it had the noise befor I got it, the car had a stinger on it.other than that it worked fine, I swaped that trans for one that had reverse going out& extreamly noiseyin reverse, that one went about 4 years till reverse finaly gave up.the next one has been in there for about 4 years, works great but is 4.12 ratio not 388 like the others, and it has a lot of backlash in 4th & some in 3rd. all have had the pensoil marine synthetic gear lube in them.all had issues when the gear lube was first put in, none got any worse(execpt for the reverse going out, but that was already going to happen&trying to back out of a drivway with about a 45degree incline wass all it had left). and my car is daily driven, only car I have and I run the crap out of it with most of it's time with big rear tires(19.5x33 or 16x31 street tires/dirt track tires.). so in the end what constututes a good oil?or a bad oil? did the marine synthetic oil keep my trans from getting any worse? or would any oil of done that?I know the synthetic oil dosent tend to "climb"like deno oils do, so do we need to add some denomoil with it to aid in climbing?I dont think so unless you do a lot of slow driving heavly loaded,but I dont think it would hurt either. now that I have 3 trans jigs I will pull the broken trans I have appart & see whats what, when I get time(& a pinion nut tool).
as for the gl 6 being a higher load oil I would think that would be good for big motor guys that tend to have fun, more fun than most& also need rear tires more offten.(good think I cant read& grammer is in cali.)

Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:03 am

http://www.smokinvette.com/corvette/articles/a-study-of-automotive-gear-lubes-part-2/

The Copper Strip Tarnish Test (ASTM D130-10) is a standard test of a lubricant to indicate how corrosive it is to copper alloys that may be in a transmission.

Copper Corrosion Resistance
Extreme-pressure additives in gear lubricants become more chemically active when subjected to heat. Copper and brass are soft metals and are subject to attack from acids, sulfur compounds and other chemicals in gear lubricants. When corrosion attacks these components it can be seen as a discoloration and occasionally forms buildup on the surface of the component. Acidic corrosion results in wear, which can lead to component failure.

Gear lubricants that are "yellow metal friendly" can be hard to find. I perused through data sheets and called lubricant manufacturers to find copper strip tarnish test results for their products. Those lubricants that I found test results for are in the table below.

M/T FLUID & GEAR OIL WEIGHT API CLASSIFICATION

Amsoil Long Life FGR 75W-90 GL5 1B Dark Orange
Amsoil Severe Gr SVG 75W-90 GL5 1B Dark Orange
Amsoil M/T Fluid MTF 5W-30 1A Light Orange
Amsoil MT & Gear MTG 75W-90 GL4 1B Dark Orange
Castrol Hypoy C 80W-90 GL5 1B Dark Orange
Castrol SYNTEC 75W-90 GL5 1B Dark Orange
Citgo Citgear Std XD 75W-90 GL4 1B Dark Orange
Delo Gear Lubric ESI 80W-90 GL5 2A Claret Red
Delo Trans Fluid ESI 50W 2A Claret Red
GM Synthetic Axle 75W-90 GL5 1B Dark Orange
Lucas 75/90 Synthetic 75W-90 GL5 4B Graphite Blk
Mobil 1 Synthetic 75W-90 GL5 1B Dark Orange
Mopar Synthetic
w/Mopar LS additive 75W-90 GL5 4A Trans Black
Pennzoil Gearplus 80W-90 GL5 1B Dark Orange
Pennzoil Synthetic 75W-90 GL5 1B Dark Orange
Red Line MT-90 75W-90 GL4 1A Light Orange
Red Line NS Gear Oil 75W-90 GL5 1B Dark Orange
Red Line 75W90 GL-5 75W-90 GL5 1B Dark Orange
Royal Purple Max-Gear 75W-90 GL5 4A Trans Black
Torco SGO Synthetic
w/Torco Type G LS add 75W-90 GL5 1B Dark Orange
Valvoline High Perf 80W-90 GL5 1B Dark Orange
Valvoline SynPower 75W-90 GL5 1B Dark Orange

Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:18 am

Isn't the test conducted at 212 and 250 degrees? (which is hotter than VW transaxles generally run)

Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:26 am

glutamodo wrote: Isn't the test conducted at 212 and 250 degrees? (which is hotter than VW transaxles generally run)

I'm not an engineer..my thinking is the heat is used to accelerate the test time to three hours rather than duplicate an operating environment.

Rather than wait six months at 120*f/180*f the heat is increased to shorten the time for results.

Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:00 pm

From http://www.hdforums.com/forum/sportster-models/804...wered.html

SAFE GL-5 Oils
Amsoil M/T Fluid MTF..5W-30.............. 1A Light Orange
Red Line MT-90.......75W-90 GL4......... 1A Light Orange
Amsoil Long Life FGR 75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Amsoil Severe Gr SVG 75W-90 GL5....... 1B Dark Orange
Amsoil MT & Gear MTG 75W-90 GL4...... 1B Dark Orange
Mobil 1 Synthetic....75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Castrol Hypoy C......80W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Castrol SYNTEC.......75W-90 GL5........ 1B Dark Orange
Citgo Citgear Std XD 75W-90 GL4........ 1B Dark Orange
GM Synthetic Axle....75W-90 GL5........ 1B Dark Orange
Pennzoil Gearplus....80W-90 GL5.......... 1B Dark Orange
Pennzoil Synthetic...75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Red Line NS Gear Oil 75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange
Red Line 75W90 GL-5..75W-90 GL5....... 1B Dark Orange
Torco SGO Syn G LS....75W-90 GL5...... 1B Dark Orange
Valvoline High Perf..80W-90 GL5........... 1B Dark Orange
Valvoline SynPower...75W-90 GL5......... 1B Dark Orange

MARGINAL GL-5 Oils
Delo Gear Lubric ESI 80W-90 GL5.......... 2A Claret Red
Delo Trans Fluid ESI 50W..................... 2A Claret Red

UNSAFE GL-5 Oils
Royal Purple MaxGear 75W-90 GL5......... 4A Trans Black
Mopar Syn LS additive..75W-90 GL5....... 4A Trans Black
Lucas 75/90 Synthetic75W-90 GL5......... 4B Graphite Blk

Note that the generic lube your local mom and pop garage uses may well not be listed.

Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:35 am

and this chart means what? and how many trans dont use soft scyncros? what about using a automatic transaxle fluid in these trans?

Sun Dec 23, 2012 1:39 pm

mark tucker wrote: and this chart means what? and how many trans dont use soft scyncros? what about using a automatic transaxle fluid in these trans?

Porsche 901/915 gearboxes don't have any soft metals. All steel syncros. There may be others too in the over the road trucks and others.

Most rear end drive differentials are all steel. The Vanagon transaxle (spec is GL5) for the automatic is all steel too. A high sulfur gear oil won't bother them.

The chart indicates how much the gear oil attacks the copper..and a clue to how it would react long term with soft metals in a transmission.

If you are suggesting using ATF in the transmission..it has been done. I think Volvo used AFT in the manual gearboxes back in the 70's and 80s. ATF was specified by Volvo.

You can use anything if you want to make your transmission a laboratory for experimentation.

I would suggest using a gear oil specified (GL4-GL5-ATF-engine oil) by the manufacturer. They already did the experimentation for you.

Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:51 pm

mopar also used it in thier gearboxes. Ive not seen any aotos that didnt atleast have a bronze thrust washer somewhere in them,althou a lot have gone to a needel thrust now,and now with all the electronic stuff in transmissions therre is probably some brass termanals too.I have plenty of penzoil gl5 synthetic oil to last me many years. I was just wondering.and the chart means nothing to me with out an explanation of what it means for each spec and what they do or dont do.

Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:46 pm

The "Safe" oils are okay to use in a tranny with yellow metal synchros,

the "Marginal" oils are less safe to use, and

the "Unsafe" oils shouldn't be used.

What is so hard to understand about that?

Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:33 pm

Safe?

Mon Jan 07, 2013 6:55 pm

SgtSamy wrote:

Safe?

http://www.mag1.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=4d0a56b4-ab09-42b1-a240-8eac56cf7966

Quote: API GL-5 and MT-1

It should be OK

Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:12 pm

SgtSamy wrote:

Safe?

Just email them and ask what the ASTM D130 test results are. Should be 1a or 1b..