TheSamba.com :: View topic

Wed May 24, 2017 3:46 am

epowell wrote:

. . . the jam bar was bending badly . . .

For one thing, you mounted your holdfast fixture (angle iron) upside-down.

Remember, other than, for example, a slab of marble, most materials are stronger in tension than they are in compression.

Richie (near The Burgh)

Wed May 24, 2017 3:53 am

Wildthings wrote: Not sure to what parts of the world their free shipping extends, but one of these used with an 8# sledge will get the nut off in a jiffy

https://www.amazon.com/Urrea-2646SWM-121-Point-Off...ing+wrench

An 8# sledge? Dear God, we're not talking about the nuts on a nuclear reactor head here. A 2# beater is more than enough.

Richie (near The Burgh)

Wed May 24, 2017 4:29 am

Sodo wrote: Pretty sure you hit the slug wrench about 4 inches out.

Can you hit your water pump bearing? Hammer on your alternator shaft? What about your table-saw, your drill press? What other valuable precision items do you have that are hammer-able on the ball-bearings?

Can you hammer on the embattled mainshaft bearing inside your transaxle? What about the pinion bearing? Its a roller bearing, not a ball-bearing - is it hammer-able? Or JUST VW rear wheel bearings are hammer-able?

OK so we're gonna hit this precision rolling component that is accurate to fractions of one 10,000 of an inch ----- with a sledge hammer.

And you want it to spin super smooth for hundreds of thousands of miles under heavy loads, far from home, and not start shedding hard-facing. And contaminating the grease with super-hard abrasive particles.

Etc.

OK And not worry about it either. Longevity be damned. Newbie mechanics are listening here, so lets get this straight. You NEVER hammer on a bearing EVER, EXCEPT VW rear wheel bearings are OK. The only bearing hammer-able.

Got that?

GoWesty does not mention hammering with regards to their 46mm tool. But Van Cafe says you can hammer on the bearing. If you're gonna do it, supporting the wrench like this might be the best way.

Unless you add a brace to keep the axle assembly from spinning your method is going to send impact loads to the CV's. Thought you didn't like beating on bearings with a hammer? Why not just leave the tire on the ground and transfer both the torque and radial component directly to the ground so that you get almost zero impact on both the wheel bearings and the CV's? or if you have the wheel off, support the drum on a 6x6 block and use a heavy bar to prevent the axle from turning, done right you will get very close to zero load on any bearing.

This tool is somewhere around 11-12" long, yes one's blows will not be right at the 12" mark, I was just trying to make the math easy by suggesting so.

Wed May 24, 2017 4:48 am

epowell wrote: Wildthings wrote:
The weight on the bearing for a fully loaded van will be 1433+ pounds depending on model. Start moving the van and this load is going to begin to pulsate from zero if the tires leave the ground to many times 1433# when the suspension bottoms out hard. The forces caused by the acceleration of the suspension components due to driving over washboards and other rough ground also puts considerable extra load on the bearings.

Kinda begs the question... who is going to drive their van fully loaded down washboard roads without the full awareness that doing so is taxing the longevity of their van? The prudent Vanagon owner would try to avoid such a situation, but when unavoidable would drive very slowly and carefully I'd imagine - at least that's what I've always done and never in my life had bearings problems (plenty of bumpy roads in Northern BC, and on Indian reservations in the USA.

Between Vanagons and Bays I have somewhere around a million miles on VW Transporters at this point in time with tens of thousands of those miles being on dirt roads, some of them quite bone jarring. Still waiting on my first wheel bearing failure. You don't have to be abusive to be seeing dynamic bearing loads that are several times higher than static loads, that is just how the game works. If you are worried about bearing failure, then while you have the hub off, pull the seal and use a needle on your grease gun to force some new grease into the bearing housing.

Wed May 24, 2017 4:53 am

couldn't you put the wheel back on when removing the nut?

http://campervanculture.com/2011/07/jed-replaces-the-rear-wheel-bearing-on-his-t25-vanagon-syncro/

Wed May 24, 2017 5:31 am

atomatom wrote: couldn't you put the wheel back on when removing the nut?

Certainly the easiest, safest method and one that will do zero damage to the bearings. But on TS often one is talking to deaf ears.

Quote: Put the wheel back on , drop the Car, and the. Have at it with a 3/4 and extender

Quote: Why not just leave the tire on the ground and transfer both the torque and radial component directly to the ground

Quote: Sorry, but if you hit a slug wrench with the tire on the ground or with the drum sitting on blocks, the radial load is not transferred through the bearing

These are just from this thread, geez.

.

Wed May 24, 2017 5:34 am

RicoS wrote:
For one thing, you mounted your holdfast fixture (angle iron) upside-down.

Remember, other than, for example, a slab of marble, most materials are stronger in tension than they are in compression.

Aha, I didn't know that... thanks!

So, the saga continues...
Today I tried again with a bigger wheel-jam-stick, and it bent much less but that 46mm nut wasn't moving anywhere - even after 5min. of torching.

So I resorted to harsh measures and took out my cutting wheels... carefully cut and structurally weakened the nut without coming near the threads.

Now with the nut and hub off (2 new nuts ordered immediately)... at first I thought that the hub was cracked in 2 places, but now I can see that obviously some butcher was here before me also cutting off these nuts, but let the cutting tool damage the hub.

I have to admit that having the correct socket, good jam bar, and 2meter cheater bar were still essential because with the nut weakened, I still had to practically stand on the cheater bar to get the nut to budge.

- - -

Wow, that was such an ordeal I almost forgot why I wanted that nut off in the first place...... hmmmm..... oh yeah, get the backing plate off!

Wed May 24, 2017 5:48 am

ONE QUESTION:
If I want to remove this nut again in a year or so, is it always going to be so difficult - or was this particularly difficult because someone over-torqued it - or it has corroded on with time - or both?

I ask because I know that with this nut off there are some maintenance items I should look at, like re-packing and checking the bearings --- but my time is now short and since I don't have any negative symptoms coming from my rear wheels I am thinking to leave the bearings and CVs alone until next year..... just "get in and out" quickly right now. But I don't want to have to cut the thing off again.

or... next year I can just plan it better and get the guy at the garage to zip them off with the AIR GUN. [right now that's not possible because the front is still up on blocks]

Wed May 24, 2017 7:25 am

Wildthings wrote: Unless you add a brace to keep the axle assembly from spinning your method is going to send impact loads to the CV's. Thought you didn't like beating on bearings with a hammer?

Yes you are correct, the above diagram is not complete in it's depiction of safe-bearing-hammering. Be careful out there! Hammering on bearings is a slippery slope, "there's no two ways about it"!

And CORRECT. CVs are NOT on the list of hammer-able "bearings" - ONLY VW wheel bearings, right? :wink: :wink: A list of ONE. The embattled mainshaft bearing and pinion bearing (upstream, inside the transaxle) shouldn't be subjected to impacts, they're pretty important (being a precision rolling unit).

But OK ..... we are on to "hammer shock"; transmitting to OTHER precision bearing surfaces... this is good, we are getting to the crux of the matter. Submitting precision rolling units, accurate and ground smooth (to LESS than 1/10,000 inch) to hammer-shock.

This is all good. Newbies can learn why you DON'T hammer on bearings (unless in demolition, to be replaced). Because it's dicey to assume your hammer blows don't transmit to other precision components. (except with VW rear wheel bearings, of course). :wink: :wink:

Wildthings wrote: Why not just leave the tire on the ground and transfer both the torque and radial component directly to the ground so that you get almost zero impact on both the wheel bearings and the CV's? or if you have the wheel off, support the drum on a 6x6 block and use a heavy bar to prevent the axle from turning, done right you will get very close to zero load on any bearing.

That sound you hear WHAM!! is the shock load. The shock goes from bearing race-to-ball-to bearing race. You call it "zero load", I call it "sledge hammer blows." IMHO sledgehammer blows are significant.

On that note, a 2 lb hammer is a lot less than an 8 lb sledge. Is it possible to find somewhere on the web where bearings are rated by hammer size? Maybe that info will help to find resolution on this matter? I predict you will ONLY find that bearings should NEVER be hit with hammers; granted those fellers don't have a miillion miles on VWs.

I'm a little surprised TK is OK with this. Isn't there ONLY a right way and a wrong way? And hammering a bearing is the right way? But ONLY a VW rear wheel bearing,,,,,right?

I think this all came about because some feller made a $9.95 tool 40 years ago.

Wed May 24, 2017 7:59 am

TK is OK with any sensible method of removing stuck fasteners.

3/4-1" impact would be first, heat would be the second, the hammer technology would be third, cutting it off into the hub would be 4th, a linoleum propane torch would be dead last, this is like pissing into the wind.

A lot of folks have moved away from Neanderthal techniques, got smart when they wound up screwing up more than they were trying to fix.

This is a prime example.

As far as the slugger hammering technique, what do you think a 3/4" or 1" impact would do to a stuck fastener?
There are hammers inside of that impact ---how do you think they work?
Just spinning a motor in the direction you want to go?

Nyet, the impacts hammer as well as spin, and is a heck of a lot cleaner &faster method that went on in Egypt getting this hub off.
Dremel tool.

Why not just beat it off with a cold chissel & that 8 lbs. sledge hammer?

Unbelievable.

Wed May 24, 2017 8:20 am

An impact has two 'hammers' inside it. Those hammers hit the output shaft of the impact 180° apart at the exact same time and with the exact same force. The result is zero radial force being exerted on the part being loosened.

The radial force exerted with a slug wrench is not even remotely similar. If you had two slugs on the wrench 180° apart and hit both at the exact same time with the exact same force it would be comparable to an impact wrench... but it doesn't and you can't, so it isn't.

Wed May 24, 2017 8:37 am

The 1" or 3/4" impact produces more torque load & shock load on any fastener than that single hit gizmo.

The benefit of the impact is that is continuous, not a one stroke at a time between swings.

Again, still, and always, the correct application of concentrated heat is the way to go for quick & painless removal of any stuck fasteners ----

HELLO WALL--!!!

Wed May 24, 2017 8:39 am

ooops dupe

Wed May 24, 2017 8:48 am

Terry Kay wrote: and is a heck of a lot cleaner &faster method that went on in Egypt getting this hub off.

You feel like explaining how the Pyramids were built?

Wed May 24, 2017 9:00 am

Terry Kay wrote: The 1" or 3/4" impact produces more torque load & shock load on any fastener than that single hit gizmo.
Wrong. 1" or 3/4" impact is a pretty good way to do it, much safer than a sledge blow.

===============

Penetrating oil, 'soak time', then a long lever is the first choice. Oil, Quick heat, long lever is next choice. Slow heat, oil, is 3rd choice. 3/4" impact comes 4th (unless you're a shop, you don't have all day). And there are tools called "torque multiplier", these are good, but pro-level.

People who own 3/4 or 1" impacts drivers do not need to peruse theSamba for methods to remove this nut. They simply remove it. Hopefully with wheel-on-ground, and not "impact-driving" the CVs and transaxle. And in general the typical DIYers are not going to go buy industrial sized air tools (and the large air compressor) to do so. Or an oxy/acetylene torch.

In general, and I use that term loosely, this kind of thead is MOST useful to the DIY guy who needs to get that nut off to service the rear brake.

Heat is good. With penetrating oil. At this point I'd like to see a posting by a credible and crafty member PROVE that a propane torch can't do the deed. There are LOTS of propane torches out there and LOTS of IR temp guns that can show whether or not propane heats that nut. I agree 100% that oxy/acetylene will heat the nut quickly, before all the other stuff heat-soaks. But how "slowly" does propane do the job (if ever?). One can assume MAPP is a little quicker, perhaps 10%? At some point bearing seals are at risk to heat. Maybe heat the nut, and periodically check the wheel bearing housing with the IR temp gun?

What needs to be done, for theSamba, IMHO, of course is show methods to the DIY guy/gal to get that nut off without risking the lifetime of other significant components (wheel bearings for example).

Wed May 24, 2017 9:02 am

A good way is to soak it with penetrating oil for a day or several, take out the cotter key, try to remove it. You have not yet removed the wheel.

No luck?

Now drive to a shop that HAS big tools, pay them to them impact both sides off, then retighten "pretty durn tight" and put the cotter key back in. Drive home (on non-washboarded roads) and then take off the nut and do the job.

46mm=1 7/8 inch.

If a shop does not have that size socket, you might tell them you will bring one. There are sockets on Amazon for as low as $13, but they're not impact sockets. They can (probably) handle a long breaker-bar but may break with an impact driver. Then you're nuts still tight, and the shop is saying "I told ya it was gonna bust" and you still have to pay shop time. Impact sockets are more expensive, around $25-30.

You might offer to GIVE them the (impact) socket and then use your $9.95 46mm wrench (with a breaker bar, of course, not Sledge) at home.

Then do your brakes, pay homage to your (honored) wheel bearings (needle-grease?), and re-torque the nut properly to 365 ft-lbs (NOT using a Sledge hammer :shock: ).

Wed May 24, 2017 9:18 am

If you use the method I suggest of having the tire on the ground, the bearings and CV's are going to see neither torque or radial load. Yes there are going to be some vibrations, but it your bearings can't handle these vibrations, how are they ever going to handle being running over washboards or bouncing through a pot hole. The bearing damage of a single mile of washboarded road is probably equivalent to doing hundreds or even thousands of axle nut removals.

God forbid that you ever break down and have to put you vehicle on a trailer and tow it home, now you are talking about potentially hours of vibrations hitting the bearings in the same spot over and over and over, about the worst loading you can put on a bearing.

Wed May 24, 2017 9:25 am

Wildthings wrote: If you use the method I suggest of having the tire on the ground, the bearings and CV's are going to see neither torque or radial load. Yes there are going to be some vibrations, but it your bearings can't handle these vibrations, how are they ever going to handle being running over washboards or bouncing through a pot hole. The bearing damage of a single mile of washboarded road is probably equivalent to doing hundreds or even thousands of axle nut removals.

God forbid that you ever break down and have to put you vehicle on a trailer and tow it home, now you are talking about potentially hours of vibrations hitting the bearings in the same spot over and over and over, about the worst loading you can put on a bearing.

Your ability to describe numerous scenarios which are relatively common and very damaging to the bearings is no justification for willingly and willfully subjecting your vehicle to potentially damaging practices. IMO that line of thinking doesn't make sense. I greatly appreciate cautionary words of advice from members like Soho because a newby like me easily could start sledging away thinking it was OK to do so. [Sledging perhaps without even any precautionary supports]

Wed May 24, 2017 9:26 am

Wildthings wrote: The bearing damage of a single mile of washboarded road is probably equivalent to doing hundreds or even thousands of axle nut removals.

Only if you have placed a pneumatic tire (as a cushion) between the Sledge hammer and the Slug wrench.

A pneumatic tire is a great cushion. And moreso, with additional trailer suspension cushioning the ride.

Driving the van on the steel rim, over rough asphalt (no pneumatic tire) would ruin wheel bearings quickly.

Wed May 24, 2017 9:33 am

VW started using 46mm rear axle nuts on VW vans over 50 years ago.
I bought my first 46mm version of the striking tool over 40 years ago, when I had my first VW van.
I have probably used them on dozens of vans and lent them out a few times to others. They wear out from all the hitting so I replace them.
Do I think it is the ideal tool for the job? Hardly.
Do I think it puts extra stress on the wheel bearings? Yes
Have I seen a lot of bad wheel bearings develop on vans where this tool has been used? NO

I prefer a nice one piece 3/4" breaker bar for the job, with a stout 46mm socket on the end. Then a long pipe.
My SnapOn 3/4" breaker bar has a slight bend in it from this job. Sometimes it is best to just the cut the nut with a Dremel.

Mark