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Wed May 24, 2017 9:37 am

Sodo wrote: Wildthings wrote: The bearing damage of a single mile of washboarded road is probably equivalent to doing hundreds or even thousands of axle nut removals.

Only if you have placed a pneumatic tire (as a cushion) between the Sledge hammer and the Slug wrench.

A pneumatic tire is a great cushion. Driving the van on the steel rim, over rough asphalt (no pneumatic tire) would ruin wheel bearings quickly.

All those vibrations that are rattling things around in the cab, making your bottom sore, and vibrating the steering wheel are coming up from the road, they may not be as significant as what you would get if you were running on bare steel wheels, but this doesn't mean they are not there. Try sitting in the cab and have someone remove the axle nut, you will probably hardly be able to feel it as comparatively little force is being transmitted while doing so.

Wed May 24, 2017 9:39 am

crazyvwvanman wrote: VW started using 46mm rear axle nuts on VW vans over 50 years ago.
I bought my first 46mm version of the striking tool over 40 years ago, when I had my first VW van.
I have probably used them on dozens of vans and lent them out a few times to others. They wear out from all the hitting so I replace them.
Do I think it is the ideal tool for the job? Hardly.
Do I think it puts extra stress on the wheel bearings? Yes
Have I seen a lot of bad wheel bearings develop on vans where this tool has been used? NO

I prefer a nice one piece 3/4" breaker bar for the job, with a stout 46mm socket on the end. Then a long pipe.
My SnapOn 3/4" breaker bar has a slight bend in it from this job. Sometimes it is best to just the cut the nut with a Dremel.

Mark

I think this is a common experience. I did the sledge method years ago on a '72 loaf I had. And on an '85 too. I did not notice lesser wheel bearing life. I sold the vans, didn't monitor wheel bearings. But the Loaf made it to Nicaragua and back.

Note that wheel bearings don't QUICKLY inform the mechanic that they were damaged by the Sledge. And HOW HARD did you have to whack it? The only feedback is "reduced lifetime", kind of a YMMV thing.

Wed May 24, 2017 9:40 am

Wildthings wrote: Try sitting in the cab and have someone remove the axle nut, you will probably hardly be able to feel it as comparatively little force is being transmitted while doing so.

Try sitting on the hub while someone whacks it with a sledge. That would LARN YA! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Wed May 24, 2017 9:42 am

<<<If you use the method I suggest of having the tire on the ground, the bearings and CV's are going to see neither torque or radial load. Yes there are going to be some vibrations, but it your bearings can't handle these vibrations, how are they ever going to handle being running over washboards or bouncing through a pot hole. The bearing damage of a single mile of washboarded road is probably equivalent to doing hundreds or even thousands of axle nut removals.

God forbid that you ever break down and have to put you vehicle on a trailer and tow it home, now you are talking about potentially hours of vibrations hitting the bearings in the same spot over and over and over, about the worst loading you can put on a bearing.>>>

This is all a perfect scenario.

If you cannot give that axle nut a couple of good whacks to break it loose, you shouldn't be driving this poorly engineered vehicle from the get go.

The nut is on the axle, running right through the center of that hub, and will offer Zero outboard stress on the bearings.

The only item that will be suffering the load is the CV joints, and this if you have the van off the ground on jack stands.

The striker set up was designed with the hopeless in mind.
A 3/4" hammering impact can produce 1250 foot pounds of torque, the 1" 1475.
This will break anything loose.

That nut is at the axles extremities, a good , correct torch tip will have that nut expanded way prior to the bearings getting even warm.
But this is for those that know what they are doing, know how to use a torch.
Propane, mapp, was made for removing linoleum.
Nothing serious.
Try welding with that home improvement propane or mapp gas paint remover.
Won't happen, so how do you Goobers think that it will expand iron?
It won't.

SODO, you go and look up the temps at google.

The heat difference is too far away and not even close.

On this you don't have one clue what you are taking about.

Cut the nut with a dremel tool.

Real Nice job too.

Hillbilly type work / solutions.

Perfect.

Wed May 24, 2017 9:51 am

Sodo wrote: . . . That 46mm hex tool you found will need some bracing on the outside or it's gonna round out with this much torque. . . . If its just mild steel . .

C'mon, as humble as it appears, this is a CZECH tool not a Szechuan tool. Of course it is made of high carbon steel. Most likely, it will split long before it will round out.

And, I'll bet it will even swing the load as long as it can be kept from rolling off the nut. I'm often surprised at how malnourished European tools can look, so skimpy and black oxide coated, yet, they do the job in spades. Quality steel, expertly tempered, how can they be counted down?

Ed, don't get any heat near that socket - your grandfather would not approve.

Richie (near The Burgh)

Wed May 24, 2017 10:00 am

SODO, The wizard of gas temperatures;

Oxy / acetylene burns at 6300 degrees, enough to melt steel.

Your linoleum propane torch burns at 1900 degrees.

The map gas burns at 3600 degrees, just enough for soldering, or getting that bathroom tile off the floor.

Big gap there professor.

Wed May 24, 2017 10:03 am

Terry Kay wrote: SODO, The wizard of gas temperatures;
Oxy / acetylene burns at 6300 degrees, enough to melt steel.
Your linoleum propane torch burns at 1900 degrees.
Big gap there professor.

Puffessa sez steel starts to turn red at 1000*F

The wizard wants the benefit of your knowledge what temp does the axle nut release?

Wed May 24, 2017 10:05 am

Actually that tool is probably German. The area that I live in WAS Germany before WW2. My GFs entire family (now Czech) WERE German..... they were forced to speak Czech after WW2. GF's Grandfather fought in WW2 as a German soldier and was held in a Russian prison camp - then escaped by hiding with the pigs, returned home and his wife didn't recognize him, then suddenly the War ended and the Czechs took over that region and this Grandfather suddenly had to go to a Czech prison !!! Czech / German ??? ...who knows, these two huge houses are full of these old tools and they are all a Hell of a lot better than the crap you can buy these days from China > I am really grateful for this stash.

Wed May 24, 2017 10:06 am

Cherry red almost white--just prior to melting.
As soon as it releases.
That temp.

If you have no welding experience, then there isn't any point in attempting any explainations.

If you had that nut hot enough, slide that slugger gizmo on the nut it would be off in one resonable hit.

Wed May 24, 2017 10:19 am

Sodo wrote: Terry Kay wrote: SODO, The wizard of gas temperatures;
Oxy / acetylene burns at 6300 degrees, enough to melt steel.
Your linoleum propane torch burns at 1900 degrees.
Big gap there professor.

Puffessa sez steel starts to turn red at 1000*F

The wizard wants the benefit of your knowledge what temp does the axle nut release?

666F is the number of the beast.

Wed May 24, 2017 10:23 am

Terry Kay wrote: . . .If you cannot give that axle nut a couple of good whacks to break it loose, you shouldn't be driving this poorly engineered vehicle from the get go . . .

Aha, the cygan arises from his crypt, but I'm with you on this one, Terrence.

Do you remember the guy on the Vanagon.com mailing list about 25 years ago who said to free a stuck fastener soak it daily with kerosene and tap it 17 times per day with a 6oz. ball peen for a week? Not 16 pings, not 18 pings, but 17. He might have been stroking us with the 17 pings, but he said that's what his old man taught him to do.

Sodo wrote:
. . . . . .

An impact gun is a tangential load. It does not have a radial component. The tangential load of an impact gun "rolls" the bearings, which is what they LIKE to do.
. . . . . .

TheSamba is perhaps the ONLY place on internet hitting a ball bearing (that you intend to put into service) with a sledge hammer is defended.

I fully appreciate the impulse of force, albeit short-lived, generated during the collision of two inelastic bodies, in other words, an impact. And, an impact gun does apply a tangential loading to a fastener, but, used correctly, so does the slugging wrench.

I guess all those Walter Mittys living large on the vintage race scene need to be told that they better not knock off their wheels. I have to ask: do you really think that in former days the guys in the pits would be beating on those knock off hub spinners, then sending the drivers out to finish running the 24 Hours of Le Mans if there was a chance that their actions would cause a wheel bearing to queef out prematurely?

At one time, I, too, was worried about Binnelling the bearings. But I've removed Vanagon rear axle nuts using both leverage and using the EMPI slugging wrench and my conclusion is that using impact is far less traumatic than levering it off. I've used a slugging wrench (applied with a 2# copper beater) multiple times and driven thousands upon thousands of miles and I have yet to have a rear wheel bearing shit the bed.

I'm surprised, Sodo, while you have such a hard-on for radial loading of bearings, you offer up a scheme to remove the axle nut
( https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7970826#7970826 )
which, until the break-away torque is reached, is applying a RADIAL load to the rear wheeling bearing. With its fulcrum at the stacked timbers, the lever you cobbled together is lifting the van and loading the bearing RADIALLY, at least to the limit of the van's weight at that corner and until the nut breaks loose.

Richie (near The Burgh)

Wed May 24, 2017 11:47 am

Sodo wrote: Penetrating oil, 'soak time', then a long lever is the first choice.

Soak time. That's the ticket.

I couldn't budge my left rear axle nut with an extension over my breaker bar, and me and my 153 lb frame bouncing on it.

I sprayed it with PB Blaster and tried it again. Nothing.

As the car does not reside where I do, at the end of that weekend I went home and went about my business for the week.

The following weekend I went back to the car. At that point, it didn't take a whole lot of bouncing for the nut to budge and then come loose.

Wed May 24, 2017 12:57 pm

RicoS wrote: And, an impact gun does apply a tangential loading to a fastener, but, used correctly, so does the slugging wrench.

Yes you can support it like this pic, and remove much of the radial impact. But not all of the impact. And then how do you prevent rotation? Yes it can be done. But few have the time, inclination or understanding to cover all bases. They just sledge. That's one of the REASONS for the rule - no hammering on bearings.

RicoS wrote: I guess all those Walter Mittys living large on the vintage race scene need to be told that they better not knock off their wheels. I have to ask: do you really think that in former days the guys in the pits would be beating on those knock off hub spinners, then sending the drivers out to finish running the 24 Hours of Le Mans if there was a chance that their actions would cause a wheel bearing to queef out prematurely?

I don't know how hard wheels are knocked off. But Lemans is 3200 miles, seems like they are lasting 3200 miles.

Translate this to the Vanagon owner who would like to get more than 3200 miles. Like 200,000 miles (or 300, 400). There are better ways to do this nut-job than sledging bearings. Sledging is on the wrong end of the spectrum, and probably should be reserved for vans that are not your pride & joy.

RicoS wrote: At one time, I, too, was worried about Binnelling the bearings.

Binnelling. :wink:
I've never heard it before but it's apt. First you "Brinell" with the sledge, then "bin" the damaged bearing. Binnelling. From a typo comes forum entertainment. :lol: :lol:

I don't know if such hard surfaces would brinell. It could crack the hardfacing surface though, then the asphalt chips away later and potholes develop at a sooner date (or miles).

RicoS wrote: But I've removed Vanagon rear axle nuts using both leverage and using the EMPI slugging wrench and my conclusion is that using impact is far less traumatic than levering it off. I've used a slugging wrench (applied with a 2# copper beater) multiple times and driven thousands upon thousands of miles and I have yet to have a rear wheel bearing shit the bed.

I doubt they shit the bed, they just (maybe) don't last as long, if you didn't actually crack the hardfacing. Who knows? The roller bearing is probably tougher than snot. Its the ball bearing I'd worry about. This just being a discussion whether or not you should sledge bearings,,,,, of course 2 lbs copper is preferable (over an 8 lb sledge).

RicoS wrote: I'm surprised, Sodo, while you have such a hard-on for radial loading of bearings, you offer up a scheme to remove the axle nut
( https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7970826#7970826 )
which, until the break-away torque is reached, is applying a RADIAL load to the rear wheeling bearing. With its fulcrum at the stacked timbers, the lever you cobbled together is lifting the van and loading the bearing RADIALLY, at least to the limit of the van's weight at that corner and until the nut breaks loose.

Rico I'm surprised that you're surprised. There is no tool that can do it better than this (from the Van's point of view). No impact at all.

The 'holder' is pinned into the van's jack point. It worked well. It's as good or "proper" as the best method and I still have it, ready for action anytime! I prefer a 3/4" breaker bar with a 46mm socket. Will be watching for one and pick it up someday so I can bequeath that jungle boogie unit to someone in the area who needs it.

Wed May 24, 2017 1:02 pm

Sorry if this is a dumb question. Is there a reason for not leaving the wheel installed to keep everything from rotating while applying torque to the nut?

Wed May 24, 2017 1:04 pm

Bajaleo it's better if the wheel is on, and on the ground. And perhaps someone in the driver seat holding all four brakes.

Wed May 24, 2017 1:07 pm

I left my wheels on and with a 3' pipe on my breaker bar it broke loose with a couple of good bounces. The tires and breaks will keep it from spinning. I don't know why everything gets overcomplicated when you ask a question on a forum.

Wed May 24, 2017 1:14 pm

PDXWesty wrote: with a 3' pipe on my breaker bar it broke loose with a couple of good bounces.

You are right, you had no need for complication for ideal conditions. No Sledging of bearings.

This discussion, I think, is for the folks whose nuts are NOT coming lose under ideal conditions.

Wed May 24, 2017 1:17 pm

Sodo wrote: PDXWesty wrote: with a 3' pipe on my breaker bar it broke loose with a couple of good bounces.

You are right, you had no need for complication for ideal conditions. No Sledging of bearings.

Penetrating oil forseveral days, and a 3 foot pipe with 120 lbs, is ideal.

So are you saying that if the 46 nut is torqued correctly and not left for too many years between removals, then "a 3 foot pipe with 120 lbs" is all that should be necessary?

Is it that the problem comes with too many decades without removal... (rust)?

Wed May 24, 2017 1:19 pm

epowell wrote: So are you saying that if the 46 nut is torqued correctly and not left for too many years between removals, then "a 3 foot pipe with 120 lbs" is all that should be necessary?

I absolutely suppose that 100% !

Wed May 24, 2017 1:34 pm

Sodo wrote: epowell wrote: So are you saying that if the 46 nut is torqued correctly and not left for too many years between removals, then "a 3 foot pipe with 120 lbs" is all that should be necessary?

I absolutely suppose that 100% !

So the point then is to remove that nut at least once every 2 or 3 years... and there never should be a problem.