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Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:09 am

I use use ordinary Stalube brand CV grease

I don't use the little packets that come with the boot - too messy to deal

with IMHO

Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:41 am

So you are using the stay lube CV grease in the blue and white 4oz tube? Ray

Tue Dec 14, 2010 8:44 am

Hmmm- Yes a tube, but I dont recall any detail.

I'm going home for lunch - I'll check come back with detailz later today

Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:05 pm

Yep...

The generic Sta Lube CV grease in the blue and white 4oz tube

Tue Dec 14, 2010 12:14 pm

Ok, thats a classic CV joint grease. Its described as a basic lithium base, but made with molybdenum disulphide.
I have also used the Sta-lube moly-graph grease as a CV grease with no problems. It appears to be largely the same grease with the addition of graphite.
Interstingly...the tech service sheets list that the CV joint grease has a higher Timkin OK load...so the addition of graphite does something negative to the scuff and high load oil fim characteristics. Ray

Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:21 pm

I use the grease in the little bag that comes with the boots. Given how awkward i am it's no messier than using the grease in a tub.

Slightly off topic, but after searching for over a year I finally found more nitrile gloves last week. They are the best type of glove I have found for doing CVs and that kind of work. Strong, chemically resistant, flexible and reasonably tactile.

Tue Dec 14, 2010 3:11 pm

RatCamper wrote: I use the grease in the little bag that comes with the boots. Given how awkward i am it's no messier than using the grease in a tub.

Slightly off topic, but after searching for over a year I finally found more nitrile gloves last week. They are the best type of glove I have found for doing CVs and that kind of work. Strong, chemically resistant, flexible and reasonably tactile.

Yes, nitrile are the best for general purpose work. Bear in mind that most carb cleaners will still eat nitrile but the burn through time is about triple the latex gloves.

I also use a lot of latex gloves, but they come in numeroud thicknesses. Most of the real cheapies at most FLAPS are far too thin for auto work.

I use these http://www.uline.com/BL_1017/Microflex-Latex-Exam-...7AodMAoSqA
They are 9 mils thick and are nearly as bulletproof (snag and rip wise) as Nitrile....but do not have the chemical resistance. But they are great for when you need dexterity. Most basic latex gloves are 5 mils thick (.005").

If you use carb cleaner or are working in a parts washer, neoprene or butyl rubber dipped gloves are best...also they are between 18 and 23 mils thick. Ray

Tue Dec 14, 2010 5:24 pm

The Meyle's that failed on mine were from cracks on the outside. Didn't notice any deteration on the inside. The Febi's put on at the same time had no external problems.

Wed Dec 15, 2010 7:21 am

Sadly....rubber and chemicals do not just work that simply.

You cannot just say that because the cracks were on the outside that it is a sure thing that what was inside had nothing to do with it.

All of these elastomers have some level of porosity. I have seen many types of rubber break down on the outside because of plasticizers from within the rubber....migrating to the outside....because the inside was absorbing chemicals from what was being contained (whether its a chemical, liquid, grease, etc.) inside of the rubber boot, hose, container or diaphram.

Fuel lines can have the same issues. Thats why this is so hard to diagnose. For example..I have some polyethylene labware parts at work
that are breaking down on the outside only. They are all the same age and lot #. Those with nothing in them are pristine. Those holding chemicals (actually an ink) have developed beads of gooey plasticizer"sweat" on the outside and are starting to get a leathery look.

The inside when you pour the ink out and rinse it....is smooth as new...appears to have no damage except for a very faint discoloration....similar to what you get when you heat a sauce in a plactic container in a microwave oven.

The gist is that absorption of damaging chemicals from the inside of the container is causing seepage to the outside surface of chemicals that will damage the outside.
You would not be able to tell if this was happening from inspecting the inside of the boot with your naked eye.

Yes...its a plastic...but plastic and rubber polymers have a lot in common. This is why I am asking about the lubricants we are putting in these boots.
It could very well be that some of the chemicals in the greases have changed. Ray

Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:37 am

Anyone know what the front boots on a Syncro are made out of and if boots that fit the rear can be had from the same material?

Wed Dec 15, 2010 12:43 pm

OK so I used the Meyle grease tubes that came in the kit with the Meyle boots and they cracked on the outside within a couple of months < 500 miles.

Maybe they should employ a chemist.

Or not sub-contract to malaysia.

Mildly related - I replaced the boots on my front drive DD toyota a few months ago with universal ones that stretch over the CV joint (for where the CV doesn't come off the axle, or it's too much grief to get it off), the rubber these were made from was ultra stretchy and pliable, I'm 3000 miles in and they're perfect so far, if they keep going I'll look into adapting them to bus or ghia usage - not sure how attach them to the metal flange reliably just yet.

Ant

Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:12 pm

The split boot is a temporary/emergency thing only. Its most probably that if they were ultra stretchy...they are silicone. Some of the industrial high temp silicones are almost un-killable by anything.

Who knows. you would think that if they send a gerase...it would be tested with their product. Ray

Wed Dec 15, 2010 1:44 pm

It's not a split boot, this is a one-piece affair like a regular boot except the the 'narrow' end which goes over the drive shaft (typically ~ 1" dia) will stretch out to go over the 3"+ CV joint before returning to it's original dia.

You could be right about the silicon content though, that would make sense.

Ant

Wed Dec 15, 2010 3:21 pm

cool karmann collected wrote: It's not a split boot, this is a one-piece affair like a regular boot except the the 'narrow' end which goes over the drive shaft (typically ~ 1" dia) will stretch out to go over the 3"+ CV joint before returning to it's original dia.

You could be right about the silicon content though, that would make sense.

Ant

Really! Thats stretchy! Its got to be silicone! Ray

Wed Dec 15, 2010 5:44 pm

raygreenwood wrote: Sadly....rubber and chemicals do not just work that simply.

You cannot just say that because the cracks were on the outside that it is a sure thing that what was inside had nothing to do with it.

All of these elastomers have some level of porosity. I have seen many types of rubber break down on the outside because of plasticizers from within the rubber....migrating to the outside....because the inside was absorbing chemicals from what was being contained (whether its a chemical, liquid, grease, etc.) inside of the rubber boot, hose, container or diaphram.

Fuel lines can have the same issues. Thats why this is so hard to diagnose. For example..I have some polyethylene labware parts at work
that are breaking down on the outside only. They are all the same age and lot #. Those with nothing in them are pristine. Those holding chemicals (actually an ink) have developed beads of gooey plasticizer"sweat" on the outside and are starting to get a leathery look.

The inside when you pour the ink out and rinse it....is smooth as new...appears to have no damage except for a very faint discoloration....similar to what you get when you heat a sauce in a plactic container in a microwave oven.

The gist is that absorption of damaging chemicals from the inside of the container is causing seepage to the outside surface of chemicals that will damage the outside.
absorbingYou would not be able to tell if this was happening from inspecting the inside of the boot with your naked eye.

Yes...its a plastic...but plastic and rubber polymers have a lot in common. This is why I am asking about the lubricants we are putting in these boots.
It could very well be that some of the chemicals in the greases have changed. Ray that is some great stuff ray :) i think that the rubber used today might not be what we would get years ago, i would bet that there is, if any at all not a trace of real rubber in the boots. and i bet that there is cheaper filler in it, and that makes it less solid and much more porous. mfgs have skimped on everything now days. i'm not sure what kind of corrosives are in greases, but at the same time, it needs to be looked at how and why the boot is absorbing what chemicals thats doing the damage. non-porous vs porous and corrosive additives vs non corrosive additives. i would bet thats where the problem is, and all boots are all the same.

Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:12 pm

raygreenwood wrote:
its incompatible grease.
I do not know exactly what chemicals are bad or good.
I do know that proper CV greases are not your average grease.
a CV grease is more properly described as a thickened oil. with specific metallic additives. It is an extreme pressure gear oil with a thickening detergent. You have to be careful because most classic CV joint greases have a high percentage of lead as an anti-corrosion compound....as well as molybdenum. They are toxic. Keep them off your skin.

Lead? Thickened oil? Rubber attacking extreme pressure gear oil with thickening detergent? Where are you getting this information?

raygreenwood wrote:
It could also easily be that many fo the better companeis are still making the boots out of the same thing they always have...and to the same tolerances.....but since they do not makes greases....and we all know how much oil formulations have changed in the past few years....and CV grease is made form oil......if I had to point to one factopr that I would guess has changed the most...it would be the grease.

I don't think so, Ray.

I have several hundred thousand miles of CV boot experience, and in every instance, the deterioration begins on the outside, drying out and rock hits. I have never never never repacked a CV and looked inside the boot and thought, dang, that grease is ( ) softening ( ) attacking ( ) drying out that rubber there.

Modern parts made by old established firms like Lobro are crap, and the tolerances are getting sloppier by the day, and the incredible effort they put into using less raw material and less machining per unit is a sad thing to behold, particularly with Lobro.

Sometimes I have used any old Valvoline DuraBlend molybdenum-fortified extreme-pressure grease with a sulfide base (not lead in today's world), and sometimes I have used that little pouch of Lobro's very own CV grease, and I do not think there is a relationship between which grease I used and the failure of the rubber, to wit:

My current bus, the BobD, had new Lobro boots + their "special" grease installed as "pre-emptive maintenance" by the prior owner, BobD.

I installed his used OEM boots in the Road Warrior using Valvoline Durablend.
I racked up over 50,000 miles on the Road Warrior with his OEM boots that already had 35,000 miles on them.

His replacement Lobros however, failed after 7,000 miles. And the replacement Lobros to replace the Replacement Lobros, one of them failed in 3,000 miles, hairline cracks all around the inner pleat-to-driveshaft end. Pathetic cheap crap is what we call it. I STILL have the OEM BobD boots from the remains of the late great Road Warrior, and they ARE going back on the car they were originally installed in, because they are still perfectly useable.
Colin

Wed Dec 15, 2010 11:43 pm

I bought my lobros 3 years ago and they were 3 years old at that point and still were supposedly made in Germany.Think I'm safe? Found a couple of lobro boots then made in Italy. They probably moved their manufacturing to China like many others. Back then things were built to last, now they are made to fail.

Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:09 am

[quote="Amskeptic"] raygreenwood wrote:

Lead? Thickened oil? Rubber attacking extreme pressure gear oil with thickening detergent? Where are you getting this information?

(a) I have been in two separate grease formulating plants...and have seen the products being made.
(b) Read your MSDS sheets and do some research. There is a vast amount of information out there about how grease is made and what in it.
(c) I work with rubber and plastic products in my industry every day....and work with over 15 rubber and elastomer companies.
(d) I have a pretty nice lab at work

Where do you get your information? :wink:

raygreenwood wrote:
It could also easily be that many fo the better companeis are still making the boots out of the same thing they always have...and to the same tolerances.....but since they do not makes greases....and we all know how much oil formulations have changed in the past few years....and CV grease is made form oil......if I had to point to one factopr that I would guess has changed the most...it would be the grease.

I don't think so, Ray.

Quote: I have several hundred thousand miles of CV boot experience, and in every instance, the deterioration begins on the outside, drying out and rock hits. .

If that is all the CV boot experience you have...then you are several hundred thousand miles less than my experience. Not saying its little...just saying that I have a lot as well. I have over a million miles in ACVW's...and have the logs documenting them. On my own vehciles and for many other people I have changed HUNDREDS of CV boots. Big deal.
Quote: I have never never never repacked a CV and looked inside the boot and thought, dang, that grease is ( ) softening ( ) attacking ( ) drying out that rubber there

And actually:
(a) you have probably never looked inside to see if the grease is attacking the rubber.....and
(b)if you are in fact getting solvent migration into the rubber (which is what I described earlier with the plastic container.....and had nothing to do with "attacking" anything).....you wouldn't have been able to see it anyway. It leaves no visible trace.

We use these kind of tests while testing synthetic rubber membranes. You use a chamber with a solvent, oil or acid on the bottom at atmospheric pressure (but no open air inside) and a diaphram in between of the rubber or elsastomer to be tested....and atmospheric pressure on the top....but sealed from open air (no circulation).

What you get if you are getting solvent/oil migration.....is no apparent damage to the wet side....but droplets of migrated chemical which also contain plasticizers from the rubber...condesning on the air side. It is those chemicals in the prescence of air...that are doing the attacking.
I see this all the time during testing. Urethanes and neoprenes are the worst.

Quote: Modern parts made by old established firms like Lobro are crap, and the tolerances are getting sloppier by the day, and the incredible effort they put into using less raw material and less machining per unit is a sad thing to behold, particularly with Lobro.

No argument there...but its easy to say they are crap....but do you know what makes them crap?

Quote: Sometimes I have used any old Valvoline DuraBlend molybdenum-fortified extreme-pressure grease with a sulfide base (not lead in today's world), and sometimes I have used that little pouch of Lobro's very own CV grease, and I do not think there is a relationship between which grease I used and the failure of the rubber, to wit:

Its great that you do not [b]"think" that there is a relationship between the grease and rubber....but that does not mean that you "KNOW" there is no relationship between grease and failing rubber.
I have rubber products in my industry fail EVEY SINGLE DAY due to chemicals FAR milder than anything found in any grease on this planet.

For example, do you know....that the esters in hydrogenated Canola oil and at least three other vegetable oil blends eat natural rubber and variants of Buna-N for lunch. The issue is...the hydrogenation process.
So knowing that.....you are telling me your gut feeling is that we should not even be thinking about what might have changed in the oils/greases?

(a) valvoline durablend is NOT a cv joint grease. That does not mean that you cannot use it for one but.....thyat may be one of the reasons it does not cause problems with the current iterations of CV boot rubber....it may be teh cause in other times.
(b) Check the MSDS sheet...AND the labelling of the vast majority of actual CV JOINT GREASES....and you will find that they both contain lead and have lead warnings as per European REACH initiatives reporting documents.[/b]

My current bus, the BobD, had new Lobro boots + their "special" grease installed as "pre-emptive maintenance" by the prior owner, BobD.

Quote: I installed his used OEM boots in the Road Warrior using Valvoline Durablend.
I racked up over 50,000 miles on the Road Warrior with his OEM boots that already had 35,000 miles on them.

And your point is?

Quote: [b]His replacement Lobros however, failed after 7,000 miles. And the replacement Lobros to replace the Replacement Lobros, one of them failed in 3,000 miles, hairline cracks all around the inner pleat-to-driveshaft end. Pathetic cheap crap is what we call it. I STILL have the OEM BobD boots from the remains of the late great Road Warrior, and they ARE going back on the car they were originally installed in, because they are still perfectly useable.
Colin [/b]

Again....nowehere did I dispute that they were not cheap crap. Again...I am simply suggesting that there may also be....which I know is 100% true....other changes in the chemistry of the grease that is EXACERBATING THE DEMISE OF THIS CHEAP CRAP! :roll:

The real point here is that it could easily be JUST bad rubber formulation (which is quite easy to think and be done with it)...and it could also be 100 other things as well INCLUDING THE GREASE....and including ozone etc. Ray

Thu Dec 16, 2010 11:54 am

By the way Colin....I'm not being bitchy. Sorry if I came off that way. I value your opinions and input. I am just pointing out that there is a lot of chemistry potential going on here.

We all know ...and agree....that most manufacturers regardless of name and history are putting out crap. I was not defending them in the least.
However the mystery of why some crap works sometimes and not others ...suggests that we should be looking at every avenue.

This is not letting the manufacturers off the hook....it is simply exploring all possibilities. As i find all teh time...evne with rubbber and plastic that is of KNOWN quality...we are having new troubles with old chemicals...that are unexplained.

By the way...Valvoline durablend is a synthetic grease. I would not expetc it to contain much if any lead.
Almost all other EP greases use metals or combinations of metals for EP ingredients. Wherever you have lithium stearate and other bases...you WILL have some lead content.
Wherever you have Molybdenum...you ALWAYS have some lead contenrt
The unique nature of most DEDICATED CV greases is that most were formulated with lead compounds because its a killer lubricant.
Ray

Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:23 pm

anyone have any experience with these:

they are branded Meistersatz "now available through Rein Automotive".
found it in the shop--no idea how old it is--but it looks and feels like a quality boot.
much stouter rubber than some of the cheapies i also found.

it's a kit with grease and triple square bolts.