TheSamba.com :: View topic - Impressive small displacement combo (chassis dyno eval)

Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:52 am

hmm - I'll have to look at the subaru engine again - but I think a modified dtm along with sNickies might be able to work with a subaru engine which would probably allow a much smaller radiator to be used so everything could fit in the rear since the cylinders would be cooler the water temp would be kept cooler as well. Or maybe a modified dtm that had a small radiator built into it like the oil cooler is now.

I absolutely love my type4 but a subaru engine built by Jake would be great as well.

As far as what a car would be worth in my opinion I think don't think you would get any less for a super with a well installed subaru engine than you would with a type1.

I think the guys at a subaru place would be happy to work on the engine if you had a detachable rear and the engine slid right out :D

Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:30 pm

Quote: Jake, will you be using their parts or developing your own?

We are already developing our own and have been for a while. With LN Engineering and HAM on board as well, working like we always have to develop engine assemblies.

Quote: know that no one is willing to develop the "kits" to install an STi engine in to a VW and this is where I say there might be a reason why. If the average VW performance enthusiast isn't willing to pay for high quality engine parts, they probably won't be willing to pay for a high quality adaptor kit, tuned STi engine, and God forbid the labor for a shop to install it.
We have NEVER had a difficult time finding people to buy what we create, in fact we can't meet the demands. Branching into the Suby just makes for a more well rounded and more diverse company.

Quote: Also, will the average performance enthusiast be able to troubleshoot and maintain an engine like this when problems occur, (and they will occur.)? I understand Jake that this venture is just another division of your company and I think that developing and refining the STi engine is a worth while effort but I'm not sure enough of the performance VW crowd will have the means to warrant pursuing this avenue. I'm sure that even used STi engines are at a premium now due to their popularity and potential. Time will tell.
Perhaps not today, bit tomorrow. One of the good things about modern engines is there are designed to not need anything more than maintenance. We generally deal with intelligent individuals that can overcome challenges well. The price of used engines isn't scary at all. As always, we are not doing this work for the masses in the VW world. The good thing about it is we can give VW people a choice, crazy HP and the Suby following can pay for the development. In this situation VW people get the benefits.

Quote: I know and agree that the quality of parts available is horrible. This has been happening for many years as Gene Berg wrote about many years ago in an article called "the killing of an industry"

Yes, but today its much worse than ever.. Its the staple items too, like bearings and that sucks.

Quote: The 2110 in my car is built with NO CHINESE PARTS whatsoever. It was built with BERG parts that for the most part are no longer available. If they were, the price of the engine in my car would be close to what one of your Type 4 builds are. The problem here (as you've discovered Jake) is that people don't know what a quality part is, what it costs to manufacture them, and most of all are not willing to pay for them.
Yet again, we have no problem selling what we create, even at the prices that we charge for turnkey solutions. Honestly at any other price point thats higher the current prices is breaking the barrier for "worth vs. cost" because its still an aircooled, 4 cylinder pushrod two valve engine.

Quote: I agree that most VW parts sellers / distributors are only interested in the bottom line. So if people won't pay for high quality VW parts than why would they pay for a highly tuned water cooled Japanese flat four for their VW? These are the questions I'd ask if I was going to take on what you're doing.
Yet again, tomorrow's enthusiast are those that we are going to be working with. These are the guys who are a younger generation and will be coming from the ricer world anyway. To have the character of an ACVW with insane performance, heat and A/C as well as an engine known for excellence will just be icing on the cake.

I have a 6th sense for things like this.. Several years ago when we started developing the M96 Porsche engine we were laughed at because a brand new Porsche crate engine was 5-7K. We had years of advanced level development in these engines and then the economy hit, the dollar died and the factory Porsche engines spiked to 15K. Today they are 18K(with a 17K core charge) and we are now the ones laughing at those who know nothing about them and can't even set the cam timing effectively. We were "dumb" back then, but today we lead the way due to foresight and forethought. The Suby is the same deal...

My goal is to end up creating a choice for the customer so they have to call a competitor and say "I can go with a Raby Type 4 engine, or a Raby Subaru engine, why should I go with your Type 1 engine? Just inconveniencing the rest of the industry is worth my efforts, even if its not profitable for 5 years.

Quote: I guess I wish the venture was to pursue manufacturing and selling high quality VW parts instead of engine retrofits. I know a manufacturing venture is a complex venture in and of itself but it would be great.
Its a losing proposition.. Already been there and done that and we still do today with our own line of parts. All its going to take is one swift stroke of the pen to KILL the aircooled engine for street use and you can bat thats coming. The guys that are hanging on as long as they can and putting all their eggs in a single basket will end up broke.

Quote: After giving this more thought, since there are no companies willing to manufacture quality VW parts (as no one will pay for them) I suppose the a viable option is to use a different engine. The Subaru engine has enormous potential and the components inside it are top quality. The question is, what will it cost to put an STi engine, all of the support systems it requires, and suitable gearbox in to a old VW?
The cost doesn't really matter.. Create something that works and over time people will flock to it as long as it remains effective. I did this with TIV engines and still do today. I can build a single engine for someone in a certain area and then their buddies see it. Those buddies then end up jealous when they see the guy DRIVE to shows, make solid power and not have any issues. Before long the bandwagon starts and those buddies start ordering- this will be exactly the same way. This is why creating an entire PROCESS is important, so the person has a positive purchasing experience, and doesn't just "buy a motor".

Quote: Will people be willing to pay for it? And reallly, what will you have in the end? A VW with a highly refined Japanese water cooled flat four. Kinda cool I guess but it's really not a VW any more, to me anyway. What will it be worth when the owner is done with it? Take those things in to consideration and price a used STi. It'a a lot easier and cheaper to buy a used STi and if something happens and the owner can't work on the car anymore he / she can bring it to a Subaru dealer. I wonder what the Subaru dealer will do when an old VW rolls (or is towed) in to the shop. I bet they'll jump right on working on it don't you?

Based on the interest that we already have with zero advertising and an unfinished website for this venture, people want what we are creating and they don't even know what that is yet!

Quote: Best of luck with this Jake. If you do well developing the Subaru engine you'll definitely expand your market to include Subaru enthusiasts. This will be great for your company and who knows, maybe the benefits will somehow trickle down to the air cooled VW somehow.

I love VWs and always have. As I continue to grow my business and have fun it is important that we cover all the bases and remain on the cutting edge. I do a lot of what we do here to simply "shake up" the other guys, and create a bit of trauma for them. No better way to break the enemy down than by them never being able to figure you out...

I am documenting the car we are building now completely.. The cost is being closely monitored and it appears that for less than 5K I can have a completed car with 5 speeds, 350HP, heat and A/C. The key to getting prices down on conversion parts is standardizing these making the job a simple bolt in. This will open up opportunities for books, videos and other items to support DIY activities for the home enthusiast.

Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:28 pm

Now is that 5K including the engine, or just the parts?
And what about the tranny?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:52 pm

5K includes the engine and all the materials to build my conversion parts for this vehicle. It even includes custom cores so we can build our own radiators.

I already had the tranny. I am changing one gear, thats all.

With the right resources these engines can be bought right.. To include the drive by wire harness, entire engine harness, ECU and even the throttle pedal.

I also already had the 6 piston Brembo brakes and turbo twist wheels (lightweight hollow spokes) from an 03 996TT.. This is gonna be one real fat ass chick! Rear tires are 315s!

Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:56 pm

Jake - don't ever grow up.

I hear its no fun.

Wed Aug 10, 2011 10:52 pm

I'm still waiting to dissect the first Subaru diesel engine that the Europeans have already.
How would the nickies help the Subaru motor that is all aluminum w/small steel liners and water cooled?

Wed Aug 10, 2011 11:36 pm

this is the best thread i've read in a long time. it touched everything current in vw world and the state it's in, to what's seemingly turning out to be the next stage for fast reliable vw's and affordable suby swap for the masses, Id be down for this!

Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:15 am

GDOG57 wrote: I'm still waiting to dissect the first Subaru diesel engine that the Europeans have already.
How would the nickies help the Subaru motor that is all aluminum w/small steel liners and water cooled?

Incredibly, just like the M96 water cooled Porsche engines that we lead development with. The insane low tension rings that we can use seal off like mad with Nickies and we can run tighter clearances for added benefit.

Quote: what's seemingly turning out to be the next stage for fast reliable vw's and affordable suby swap for the masses, Id be down for this

Like I said the demand for this is more than I would have expected today. I know that in the future this swap makes killer sense, especially if emission control laws make it impossible to comply with a performance ACVW engine.

More people have been open to my exploration with these engines than I would have ever imagined, and that really makes me feel good. Hell, I already have a line forming for engines!

Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:53 pm

[quote="Jake Raby"]5K includes the engine and all the materials to build my conversion parts for this vehicle. It even includes custom cores so we can build our own radiators."

So $5K gets you an engine and the "materials" to build the conversion parts. So is this a do-it-yourself kit, or will this be a complete bolt in kit? And if so, how much will be the final cost?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:59 pm

Jake Raby wrote: . I know that in the future this swap makes killer sense, especially if emission control laws make it impossible to comply with a performance ACVW engine.

what exactly are you getting at here Jake o_0 ??
you are in georgia... they arent planning something are they?

Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:20 pm

conversions suck.....Type 1's rock........

Fri Aug 12, 2011 5:42 am

Quote: I am documenting the car we are building now completely.. The cost is being closely monitored and it appears that for less than 5K I can have a completed car with 5 speeds, 350HP, heat and A/C. The key to getting prices down on conversion parts is standardizing these making the job a simple bolt in. This will open up opportunities for books, videos and other items to support DIY activities for the home enthusiast.

Bottom line up front what excites me most about this program is the potential for videos and a step by step visual depiction of building a motor. What I have always wanted is a visual aid that would truly take me thru the details of building a high performance engine. I am not full of cash by no means but money has always took a back seat to my willingness to learn and the goal of having a vehicle I could work on in my spare time and it had potential to be whatever I wanted it to be. What initially attracted me to this hobby was the ability to disassemble and reassemble a car not just the engine by myself with basic tools using the bug me videos. Where I hit a brick wall was the lack of video and resources to build the high performance engine. I found that I had neither the tools or more importantly good visual aids to do it. For example how do you learn to set up rockers and the geometry especially when you consider ratio rockers that will require you to cut push rods etc utilizing the training aids that are available now? Posts on the Samba are great but for a novice you really need someone to either show you the process or you need a video. So an engine program with quality parts all tied in with a good video and visual aids I agree from my stand point there will be demand for this.

Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:13 am

You do know he's talking about Subaru motors right?

You also know that "I am not full of cash by no means but money has always took a back seat to my willingness to learn" that statement and Jake Raby really have nothing in common.

Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:52 am

Quote: So $5K gets you an engine and the "materials" to build the conversion parts. So is this a do-it-yourself kit, or will this be a complete bolt in kit? And if so, how much will be the final cost?

I am not concerned with overall cost at this time, because its all in development. This is the point where we do whats required to get the best result, devise the plans and then work toward production.

Also, this is what this one particular conversion is costing me to carry out. Thats with exceptional resources and the ability to do all the work in house, to include the conversion exhaust system thats application specific.

Ghia Nut wrote: Jake Raby wrote: . I know that in the future this swap makes killer sense, especially if emission control laws make it impossible to comply with a performance ACVW engine.

what exactly are you getting at here Jake o_0 ??
you are in georgia... they arent planning something are they?

No, no one here is planning a sneak attack as far as I know.. In my area we have zero emissions control laws to comply to.

What I am referring to is the rainy day when laws change and no ACVW with a performance nature could comply to the requirements and that day will come sometime. I prepare for the worst, hope for the best and use foresight at all times.

Quote: Bottom line up front what excites me most about this program is the potential for videos and a step by step visual depiction of building a motor. What I have always wanted is a visual aid that would truly take me thru the details of building a high performance engine. I am not full of cash by no means but money has always took a back seat to my willingness to learn and the goal of having a vehicle I could work on in my spare time and it had potential to be whatever I wanted it to be.
I worked with Bug Me Video to produce their Volume 8 TIV engine rebuild DVD back in 2000. I have a ton of experience with instructional videos.

Quote: So an engine program with quality parts all tied in with a good video and visual aids I agree from my stand point there will be demand for this.
Since the approach is radically different than most VW people are accustomed to, the video is a key to educating the masses that **may** consider a conversion. Which engine to use, what to cut, what to flip, what to splice and how to remove the throttle pedal from the stock pedal cluster to install a drive by wire unit are just a few of the benefits of an instructional DVD.

Unfortunately with all the variables in Type 1 components and all the influence that large scale suppliers want to have on such a production I have never been inclined to offer something like this for a Type 1 engine. I'd much rather do it for a Suby conversion so I don't end up "advertising" for the other guys. Just using a component in a DVD thats easily identifiable is enough for them to end up with "endorsements"..

With some direction, common sense and wise choices this conversion is simple.

We have gotten too far off topic here.. The engine that I posted in this thread is now sold to another samba member who bought it at a steal. I have ripped the transaxle out of the car and sold it to one of my engine customers last night.. We are finishing the re-gearing of the Porsche 915 tranny and its time to start installing the Suby..

So I think this thread is now dead... More info later over on my forums, which are taking a radical new twist very soon!

Fri Aug 12, 2011 2:45 pm

Mr. Unpopular wrote: You do know he's talking about Subaru motors right?

You also know that "I am not full of cash by no means but money has always took a back seat to my willingness to learn" that statement and Jake Raby really have nothing in common. Yes I am tracking on both accts. Thanks for asking.

Sat Aug 13, 2011 4:16 am

Will u be using those 'Quality plastic cam gears' that need changed reguarly?

Sat Aug 13, 2011 5:49 am

morymob wrote: Will u be using those 'Quality plastic cam gears' that need changed reguarly?

Just another opportunity to add an overkill engineered product to our line!

Sat Aug 13, 2011 11:01 am

Jake, aren't the dual cam Subys wider than the stock engine bay and need cutting?
If so, that would be a shame.

Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:48 pm

Yep they are wider and a sawzall is needed. Its no more of a shame than supporting the Chinese economy by filling an aircooled case with those parts IMHO.

The majority of the work can be done with a spot weld cutter, which allows the pieces to easily be rosette welded back into place at a later date. We are working on some pieces that will replace the entire aft section of a TI to easily add more room while retaining a stock look.

If I have to choose I'd gladly but a sawzall blade (Milwaukee are still made in USA!) and chop the car rather than going Chinese.. Words can't describe what my feelings are about this parts situation..

Chop, cut, weld... Making history with every stroke of the sawzall. Its fun.

Sun Aug 14, 2011 8:52 pm

craigman wrote: Jake, aren't the dual cam Subys wider than the stock engine bay and need cutting?
If so, that would be a shame.

keep in mind, ej22s are single cam (still 16 valve) and are not as wide as the dual cam ej20s or ej25s . What is great about subaru engines is that they are just about identical for the most part single or dual. So what ever jake is cooking up you will have an option and can most likely utilize the single cam engine.