TheSamba.com :: View topic - Subaru Exhaust headers

Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:40 pm

r39o wrote: Franklinstower wrote: What I would prefer is someone make a tuned, equal length header out of thicker steel for the conversions.
X2

So you all are telling me that the beautiful Small Car header is just going to turn out to be a rusted turd in short order?

WTF?

From what I understand, YES. It will look like a rusted steel header in about year, But maybe sooner Walt, your in San Diego by the salt air, correct?

I bought, from Small Car, a used mild steel header that they said was a proto type prior to them going all stainless and shit. Mine is rusting fast and flaking a little, so recently I have been coating it in peanut oil to stop the rust...just seasoning the header like I do my iron skillets!

Paul

Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:41 pm

Plus the ball conections will seal with out adding tork to the pipes. I had them on my toyota 4x4. No gaskets and they seal tight.

Maybe you could get a group buy going?? More should make them cheaper.

jcl

Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:41 pm

Well sheeet!

Sigh....My 50+ year old Mercedes 190SL has a factory stainless header. It looks a little tan too. But, it is not multi-hued and pitted. If it can be made to last 50+ years rather than just 5, then Small Car can do their homework too and use a material that lasts.

It seems there are special stainless steels just for this purpose.

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy&hl=en&s...748f66ece1

Wonder what alloy Small Car used???? (Besides whatever was cheapest....)

CRAP! I guess I am going to get the manifold and J pipe coated......sigh...

I am NOT a happy customer now....I HATE things that only last in the short term. That manifold was BIG bux and considering what it is and costing $379 (and they are out of stock - maybe they will use better material and offer a refund....geeezz....) and $95 for the J pipe it adds up to be a big expensive line item.

I feel a huge rant coming on.....

[rant]

My reading of austenitic stainless indicates there is all manner of consideration to be given the material formulation used for various applications. I ain't no materials person so I don't really know crap about this, but the manufacturer should.

Don't you hate having to know a lot about every GD thing you have to deal with???? I paid the big bux and I expect it to, at least, be made of a decent material. Not all stainless is created equal and up to every task. I wonder about what the SS coolant pipes are going to do now too.

ACK....Stainless steel is nice if used for the right application.

[/rant]

I DO NOT FEEL BEYTTER!

Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:52 pm

Quote: I am NOT a happy customer now....I HATE things that only last in the short term.
Get in line. Another player in the header market would be nice.

Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:53 pm

r39o wrote: I have the Small Car header. It looks like a work of art. I am still bolting things together.

Be sure to use Anti-Seize on all of your exhaust manifold bolts. They will rust and get stuck just like old WBX studs. I did not have this problem with the aluminized Kennedy header (many years ago). The fasteners seem to corrode worse when in contact with Stainess headers.

The Stainless hardware at the other joints will get stuck, you will have to just "twist them all off." Or if the heads rot away then you have to cut them.

It's ironic that Stainless steel can't "solve exhaust problems" it just changes them a little.

Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:55 pm

I never use SS hardware on the exhaust it galls with the quickness. Regular mild steel bolts and copper nuts work well every time.

Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:55 pm

You can check with Hans at Vanaru - he is making a thicker header with better steel, but I don't know if it is available yet. Check the bottom of this link:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=274753&highlight=header

Sun Mar 27, 2011 9:58 pm

The vanaru headers come with the motor conversion only and aren't sold separately last time I heard.

Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:09 pm

Sodo wrote: Be sure to use Anti-Seize on all of your exhaust manifold bolts. They will rust and get stuck just like old WBX studs. I did not have this problem with the aluminized Kennedy header (many years ago).]The fasteners seem to corrode worse when in contact with Stainess headers.

The Stainless hardware at the other joints will get stuck, you will have to just "twist them all off." Or if the heads rot away then you have to cut them.

It's ironic that Stainless steel can't "solve exhaust problems" it just changes them a little.
Sad but true. It is a familiar issue in the marine world that you do not mix and match fastener materials. In fact gawling produced by anti sieze on stainless fasteners can cause binding issues.

The heat cycling and moisture that the parts are exposed to only make this whole issue worse. But, again, the right choice of material minimizes the issues.

I suspect, and submit, the materials chosen and/or assembly techniques including the weldment consumables and even the post processing are defininetly not right in reference to the Small Car stainless steel headers.

I feel sorry for those who purchase the whole systems that are offered. What a cluster that must be!

Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:22 pm

As posted by others and else where a tuned system would be nice. A whole system as in the below URL is only $290 so it can be done and hopefully right. Too bad the below system is not specifically for the Vanagon conversion.

In the mean time, I think I am going to have my Small Car header and J pipe coated. Jet Cost, maybe?????

http://www.sparktecmotorsports.com/h10798s.html

Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:22 pm

r39o wrote: Sodo wrote: The Stainless hardware at the other joints will get stuck, you will have to just "twist them all off." Or if the heads rot away then you have to cut them.
Sad but true. It is a familiar issue in the marine world that you do not mix and match fastener materials. In fact gawling produced by anti sieze on stainless fasteners can cause binding issues.

It's my understanding that with stainless fasteners you MUST mix them. When the stainless is same formula that's the worst combination. For example if the bolt is 304 you need to use a 316 nut. It's actually 'welding' under pressure, then it "rolls up like a snowball". You should never screw 304 into 304, or 316 into 316.

And you would not use a zinc plated fastener in contact with Stainless, because the zinc will go away fast, leaving bare rusty steel. This is what happens to the exhaust nuts and studs when in contact with stainless headers. If you could aluminize the stainless headers it might help (?) this problem.

r39o wrote: What a cluster that must be!

Yes it is. A few months ago I asked them if they made any changes and they said no. So I decided to wait (and weld) until they do make changes. I invested 5 hours into my headers yesterday. I'm glad Small Car are willing to make stuff for our Vanagons. Nothing is easy, especially headers. Kennedy had a horrible time with the first round, I wonder if he ever made any money on headers. I would like that attention was given to this issue sooner.

I suspect the cracking is due to a resonance issue. The cracks in my exhaust look "violent". They are not tears, but smooth, like hammered smooth, and they "open up".

Sun Mar 27, 2011 10:49 pm

IF your looking for an off the shelf header mabye the turbo header flipped bacwards might work. But the out put would be on the passanger side. OR flip around a stock wrx,sti header. They are cast iron and they get VERY very hot with out cracking.
Ill see if you could bolt up the stock turbo backwards tomorrow and get back with ya.
But maybe Stans would start making a rock solid header for the samba guys??

jcl

Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:49 am

Wow,

You guys are venting today. Ok a couple things. I have 50 exhaust headers running around and I rarely here of cracking problems. I have only fixed a couple. There has been one report of a 4cyl cracked.

Better and Cheaper? That is tough. I agree if you purchase a exhaust system, it should last.

We are working on a tuned exhaust and I suppose it would be in our best interest to make sure it fits a small car set up.

Yes, Paul Svx exhaust is climbing the priority list.

Right now we are sold out of headers. I might just build a tuned exhaust and have that as the only option. Ten Cent, the exhaust god, is coming up this weekend to work on the WBXaust. We plan on do some planning for the 4cyl exhaust.

If it fits Small Car it will fit our carrier bar. Any Front Rangers want to donate their van for a couple weeks and a discounted tuned exhaust?

Oh yeah, I understand that there is no real alternative but I am going on record and saying that the stock Syncro Skid Plate sucks.

I also see a lot of people claiming our products are 'Very' expensive. Quality has a price and our products are more complete. So I think we are very competitve when you take the whole picture into account.

Thanks for all the support.

Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:51 am

a914622 wrote: IF your looking for an off the shelf header mabye the turbo header flipped bacwards might work.

Thanks for the help. That would be interesting..... Do you think it would adapt with a minor modification? I don't know what is the path of the turbo exhaust. But then we start again, on testing.

a914622 wrote: ....maybe Stans would start making a rock solid header for the samba guys??

Maybe Stan created the prototype for SC exhaust, they are only ~20 miles apart.

I like the fact that the SC exhaust (for 2.5L) is currently "out of stock". I hope this means "changes".

EDIT.... Wow RMW, nice stuff. I'm starting on some new cracks currently and will be watching for a solution over the next couple months.

Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:00 am

Is SC going to offer any sort of buy back for their poor choice of SS alloy?

Mon Mar 28, 2011 9:45 am

BlackDogVan wrote: Is SC going to offer any sort of buy back for their poor choice of SS alloy?
Let's see if they pipe up here. I know they are recently registered Samba users. They have posted on other issues.

I REALLY do not want to bolt their manifold and J pipe I have. Really I don't now.

When you have their part in your hands, it REALLY looks like a work of art. It *IS* beautiful. But, I guess like other beauty, it is only skin deep. I wish I bothered to read the other similiar thread. I may combine these threads, yet, after I figure out how to easily. See:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=274753

I do wonder what I can do to use their piping and minimize bad side effects.

Honestly, I made it a point to purchase as many items from a single source as I could so IF something happened it could not be blamed on my mixing and matching of parts. (I had Rancho supply all but the Small Car bell housing for my transmission rebuild including lubricant from Rancho, as an example.) I REALLY REALLY do not want any surprises and this quality issue with the exhaust has now stopped my progress! I want to, at least, drive to the VW Classic in Irvine in June with it. That date is coming up quick.

I am sorry if I am ranting, but geez, it is not like the parts are obviously cheap.

I also have compassion for the poor souls who have been putting up with such issues. The stock wbx does not really have such issues (as much.)

As above it seems to be either a materials or process issue (even though the darn SC pipes are known for not fitting well which I think is likely a process issue.)

Let us HOPE that the current out of stock status equates to a set of revisions to minimize (eliminate?) the now known open issues with the life cycle of the SC exhaust.

Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:11 am

Ben Huot and Hans Achter are working on a Canadian-made SS header. Ben posted a little video on the SubaruVanagon List this morning.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCWnZsnrzlc

I have the Small Car header on my 2.5 SOHC and was really disappointed in the fit - I needed to use an oxy-acetylene torch and a big bar to get the flanges onto the engine. If I'd seen Tom Shiels' header beforehand I'd have had a little flex pipe installed.

My Small Car stainless steel coolant pipe came with pinhole leaks where the stub pipe was welded on - very poor quality control and a blase attitude from SC to boot...

I got the pipe welded by a local guy and its been okay. The header is still intact one year later - we'll see how it goes...

You'd think they'd want to sell a better product just for the repeat business and word of mouth. There's an opening here for a really good Subaru conversion company. I was really disappointed when Jim Akiba spurned the Subaru engine for the Zetec - the Zetec doesn't have the fat low RPM torque of the flat four Subaru engine...

Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:09 am

Jake de Villiers wrote: I have the Small Car header on my 2.5 SOHC and was really disappointed in the fit - I needed to use an oxy-acetylene torch and a big bar to get the flanges onto the engine. If I'd seen Tom Shiels' header beforehand I'd have had a little flex pipe installed.

I was very surprised to find that I had to lengthen the pipe between left and right by 3/8" (thats 10mm!) to get it to fit the flanges. I would advise anyone whose exhaust does not fit, to do this (have a flex pipe added in the center). When this pipe is red hot, soft, and stressed, it might tear. We don't know this to be a fix, just a theory.

I won't buy another SC exhaust until they tell me they have made a significant effort to solve the problem. If a new model came out today it might take a couple years to know if the problem is solved. I suppose I will be welding on my exhaust for a couple more years...

In SmallCar's defense, they are enabling a lot of Vanagons to keep up with traffic. I think they do a great job and are deserving of some "understanding". If SAMBA got together and did a "group buy" from Stan's headers, (and a bunch of them cracked) I think everyone would then understand SmallCar's situation. You can't really understand manufacturing (in quantity) until you've tried it, and I suspect there aren't many in this forum who have done this. SC have to commit to a large number, pay for it, and hope for the best. Furthermore we don't know how many have cracked, or why.

I am HOPING, that they are working on the problems for the next batch.

Mon Mar 28, 2011 11:38 am

r39o wrote: Let's see if they pipe up here. I know they are recently registered Samba users. They have posted on other issues.

pipe up? :lol: :lol: Sounds good to me!

But just FYI it's not prudent for a mfr (especially one who is taking chances) to manage their cust service on forums, because then forum members try to do all their customer service on the forum. SC would not be in business long in that scenario. They would have to cancel every risky project (which is about 90% of their business model) to be forum-safe. And I don't think they are "internet people". This is an old-school VW shop, (30 years) who have evolved into manufacturing. Just having a computer does not mean you can communicate on a forum like Jim Akiba, or RMW, not everyone has that gift.

r39o wrote: I REALLY do not want to bolt their manifold and J pipe I have. Really I don't now.

What I would do,,,,,if you care....
I would put the header on the engine, and check the fit. If it happens to go right on, holes on studs, flanges flat, then you will probably be in the "satisfied group". If it doesn't fit, either return it, or cut it and put a flex-pipe in the middle. I bet that's the only way you will be driving it this summer.

For the corrosion issue, I think you will have to accept that the work of art will be ugly in 12 months. SC should pre-inform customers of this. The material is certainly thick stuff, it's not going to rust thru anytime soon. Maybe your Mercedes has experienced lower exhaust temps over its lifetime? Just a guess.

Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:10 pm

I have been informed that the impression coming from SC is the reason they are out of headers is they are getting something better coming. We'll see. We are rarely privy to what is going on behind the scene.

Second, in general, the parts that SC supplies meets, and does at times exceed expectations. In this case, it seems the parts in question are problematic. Every SC header I have seen (about a half dozen) need tweaking in some way. I did not have time to test fit mine due to the header being at home and the engine in the shop.

The 50+ year old Mercedes header is also made of several pieces welded together. It is located under a set of dual Solex carbs and the header is known to get cherry red from time to time under sustained high speed running. But, the end at the bottom of the car is also noted to rust off, too. Only some do this and I think it has to do with road salt and rain water. The dry ends near the carbs never have an issue of any kind.

I am in a wait and see mode currently. The header can always be fitted when the car is on the lift, too, if needed just not as easy as flipping the engine over on the stand.

NOTE: Only after posting did I catch the pipe pun. Must be a subconscious thing. :)