TheSamba.com :: View topic - Subaru Exhaust headers

Mon Mar 28, 2011 1:59 pm

I guess I should add my opinion here... I did my EJ-25 conversion with SmallCar SS header a year ago and 8000 miles ago. It didn't slide right on the head bolts, but I got it on by bracing myself and yanking on it. I used SS bolts (which I'll probably regret) but I've got no rusting and no cracking. The headers have that rainbow hue but they're still shiny and mostly silver.

So for all you ranters out there, (r39o) you should either try 'em or send 'em back. I'm sure for about 5x the cost of the SC headers, you could go to a top-notch exhaust shop and have them fabricate the crown jewel of headers for you.

Mon Mar 28, 2011 2:09 pm

2x on "try them". They might fit perfect.
Here's a pic of my headers today....... Not a rainbow hue, more like earthtones. I hope that when SC does their re-design, they don't add any cost for polishing. I want longevity - I could not care less how shiny they are.

I welded a bunch of 1/4" rod across the area that keep cracking. This may cause a hard spot that cracks worse elsewhere. They are getting heavy....

And here's a photo that shows my flex pipe when it was new. Note the stainless steel braid (new in November 2010). As I wrote, I prefer not want to have higher cost for shiny exhaust.

Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:02 pm

I've been working on new headers for about 9 months now. I built some late last year you might have seen on Ben's web site - I supplied him on his last few conversions.
That first design I didn't like so I made up one more prototype. Took a while to get the pipes right. I took it to a shop and they jigged it up for mass-production. I got the first of the production run on Saturday and I'm happy the way they came out.

I had several design goals, much of it from the perspective of harsh northern climates. It makes a big difference when talking of desert Arizona or the wet northwest or the harsh northeast.

1) top quality stainless. The 304 stainless used in this header is real quality-controlled 304 stainless from American mills.
2) syncro-compatible. Fits the standard skid rails in the typical shortening job.
3) head studs accessible with a socket wrench, not buried under a pipe. This results in a larger downward "swoop" but it still is on par with the oil pan.
4) solid stainless steel laser-cut flanges. The head flanges don't come apart usually but I've seen exit flanges corrode to the point of falling apart.
5) exit flange bolts easily accessible with socket wrenches
6) exit flange with correct machined bevel for the steel ring gasket.
7) drop-on fit! The head flanges just drop onto the heads, just as they should. No pry-bar needed
8 ) good flow characteristics. Flow and performance are not my main goals but are good to have. Longevity and reliability is what I strive for in my conversions.

Last year I also made a new J-pipe to copy the original, however, again out of the same top-quality stainless and with solid real stainless laser-cut flanges. The flanges have a machined bevel where it meets the pipe flare.

About stainless steels: I have seen many kinds of stainless (former materials engineer) and the metals with the "304" designation are not all equal. Usually if it's tubing polished to a high shine like from Vibrant or such, it's chinese stainless that they call "304". The American-made quality-controlled 304 is quite diffferent. The shop that puts these together has used this stainless tubing on jettas and hondas and such that drives through northern salt-covered winters and they have 6-year old systems daily-driven with no signs of cracking or disintegration. Basically it's what you would expect of stainless steel - longer life than steel.

The header is available for sale for an introductory price of $589. A few are available right now but I can get more in 1 to 2 weeks.
The J-pipe is available for $159

-Hans
Vanaru Engine Systems

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Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:03 pm

Oh and above prices don't include shipping.
-Hans

Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:13 pm

ALIKA T3 wrote: Wow!

I'm considering modifying my Smallcar with a flexjoint now before it goes bad ,it has 2500 miles,2 months,and already kinda rusted :roll:
Alika

That won't help any. It's not that kind of stress causing the disintegration, it's the metal itself coming apart just from the hot/cold cycling.

Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:20 pm

Jake de Villiers wrote: Ben Huot and Hans Achter are working on a Canadian-made SS header. Ben posted a little video on the SubaruVanagon List this morning.

Actually just me working on the header. Ben started installing them at the end of last year. That's the old model in the video. It held up pretty well but I couldn't get the curves right so went to the new merge-style design.
-Hans

Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:22 pm

Hans,

Nice job, it really says something when you talk about socket accessibility and other design considerations. These things get neglected even by OEM engineers, so thanks.

The prices are a bit steep, but you are not making a million, and they should last for a long time, even here in Minnesota. I will be ringing your phone, when my Kennedy system fails.

Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:32 pm

mwolf5682 wrote: Hans,

Nice job, it really says something when you talk about socket accessibility and other design considerations. These things get neglected even by OEM engineers, so thanks.

I really hate it when I encounter that kind of thing, so I don't want to inflict it on others. Thank you.

mwolf5682 wrote:
The prices are a bit steep, but you are not making a million, and they should last for a long time, even here in Minnesota. I will be ringing your phone, when my Kennedy system fails.

My aim is for it to be the last header installed. I have seen exhausts with high longevity using this tubing. We will see how it holds up.
-Hans

Mon Mar 28, 2011 7:57 pm

So not as good looking as the SS above but this is the reversed turbo header (stock) on a 2.2 with the 2.5 heads

The out put is pointed at the cam gear on the passanger side. The pan is a stock turbo.

jcl

Mon Mar 28, 2011 10:36 pm

VanaruEngine wrote: ALIKA T3 wrote: Wow!

I'm considering modifying my Smallcar with a flexjoint now before it goes bad ,it has 2500 miles,2 months,and already kinda rusted :roll:
Alika

That won't help any. It's not that kind of stress causing the disintegration, it's the metal itself coming apart just from the hot/cold cycling.

OK,thank you for your professionnal answer :P

Mine is a SC,it's looking like shit,it was indeed after 2 hours of driving,turned from shiny to browny.
Now headers are looking pitted,even though they are not really pitted.Impossible to polish.Like fake rust....weird!

I heard about craking stories before I installed them,so I tried to adjust the clamps for the muffler so they won't touch the engine crossmember (carrier?),the holes are oblong,and it took me 2 hours to not stress the tubes and assembly while torquing the bolts:everything is well aligned.

I did have to push hard on one cylinder head side,it was the right I think,the header didn't want to slide on the studs.I didn't like that,but I pushed with my hands,so not too tight afterall.

I clearly hear the cold cycling going on,tinkling noised,"tink,tong,tong,tink".

I can now hear something moving in the muffler when I take the foot off the gas pedal at low speed.I have to investigate precisely where it comes from,but I bought these parts 2 years ago almost,and installed them recently.
I guess I can stick the warranty deep in my anus now..... :evil:

I'll now better next time :roll:

Tue Mar 29, 2011 5:20 am

VanaruEngine wrote:
Actually just me working on the header. Ben started installing them at the end of last year. That's the old model in the video. It held up pretty well but I couldn't get the curves right so went to the new merge-style design.
-Hans

Yea yea yea Mr. the engineer, now go back to your shop and built more part instead of posting on the Samba :-) 5 post, ha ha ha....

That said, Hans is a friend, as been for many years, the part quality level of his stuff is off the chart. Even me I sometime think he is pushing it. But when you have some of his stuff in your hand you simply forget the price tag.

I have installed SC parts for years, nothing wrong to say about those guys, like someone stated, many van are on the road because of them. You can't sell an American/Canadian made headers for 350$ or so, no way ose.

The other problem with SOME SC parts are that they are not well suited for late engine. We (me and Hans) had to modified them constantly for late engine.

Hans build and design his own part, I test and critic them and I'm the hardest critic! You should have seen the first engine mount he did :-)
Now, it's a piece of art.

the good news is folks have now more than one source for some conversion part, Rocky Mountain Westy is another one.

Don't ask why our conversion are so expensive, the cost price is always rising.

Most (not to say all) of our customers are not Samba member. Here people come for some help because in general they are on a budget and it's a great place for DIY. People with money goes to shop/garage and have their van fix.

No one building conversion (any conversion) part or doing conversion will be a rich men one day, believe me, it's a passion thing, sadly.

Steep price??? Go have one done by a pro shop and let's see the final price. Chinese stuff is... Chinese stuff.

We don't need to sell headers to the general public, we can just have some made for us. But now we have that great shop who can mass produce them, if there is no market for good quality headers so be it.

I now the cost price, why do you think he said shipping not included...

Hans is a gentlemen, not me :-) but you all know that.

Now, take a very good look at the following link and look at our new conversion part, you should be able to see (and feel) the quality.

http://www.benplace.com/frank_subi1.htm

Now, take a look at my van, header, j-pipe and muffler where install the same day 3 years ago:

Which one is Canadian made?

Cheers guys.

Tue Mar 29, 2011 8:27 am

This is very interesting. Are you saying:
- this photo is 3 years ago?
Or
- the header in this photo is "3 years used"?

Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:18 am

Sodo wrote: This is very interesting. Are you saying:
- this photo is 3 years ago?
Or
- the header in this photo is "3 years used"?

Photo last fall, stuff installed 3 years or so ago.

Ben

Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:00 pm

Would exhaust wrap prevent some damage to hot and cold cycling??

Tue Mar 29, 2011 3:23 pm

ALIKA T3 wrote:
I can now hear something moving in the muffler when I take the foot off the gas pedal at low speed.I have to investigate precisely where it comes from,but I bought these parts 2 years ago almost,and installed them recently.
I guess I can stick the warranty deep in my anus now..... :evil:

Contact smallcar about the muffler. They had a batch in about that time frame, 2 years ago, that had a manufacturing defect - a baffle came loose inside. They were replacing them last I knew. If you take the tailpipe off and look and poke into the muffler you should be able to see or feel the loose baffle. If you can look straight through the muffler it's a definite.
-Hans

Tue Mar 29, 2011 4:05 pm

Thank you!

I'll do that as soon as I have time!

Very helpful!

Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:14 pm

304 is like boat rail--thin and easy to fab with--but in 088 or .122 its just not as durable as 316, which has titanium in it and wont rust spot in saltwater saturation. 304 needs to be thick and the 408 or 409 sounds better in 1/8 wall like handrail.

Tue Mar 29, 2011 9:08 pm

Don't get me started boys... just don't.

Wed Mar 30, 2011 6:16 am

ALIKA T3 wrote: Would exhaust wrap prevent some damage to hot and cold cycling??

This is a very good question!

My answer is not meant to hyjack, but to add to a great exhaust thread.

Engine bay temps will decrease and an efficently running system will benefit from it.

Another benefit is that if you run all year round and drive through water and snow, it adds a buffer zone to the exhaust parts and will help limit cracks due to super heating and super cooling combined in these harsh conditions.

I have done this many times with brand new exhaust parts.
It works extremely well....IF and only IF....the parts are brand new, high quality wrap is used, stainless steel tie wraps secure it in place and high temp. spray sealant is applied to the wrap on both sides before it is wrapped.

The sealant is key.
It will keep all moisture out.
It should be reapplied once a year.

The wrap comes in rolls.
Don't cut it to length!
Soak the entire roll in water overnight before working with the product.
Remove it from the water and than let it drain on a rack for an hour.
Start with a double wrap.
Spray the sealant on the exhaust part and the wrap as you go.
Tightly wrap it around the exhaust part leaving 3/4" to 1" (if using 2" wrap) exposed with the rest overlapped.
Finish with a double wrap.
Secure both ends with stainless tie wraps.
Do not secure the wrap at tight bends in the exhaust part as they heat up the most.
Once finished spray the entire wrapped part with sealant and let it sit overnight or in the sun for 4 hours.
Install the part.

I highly recommend DEI products.
They can be found at Summit, JEGS and quality speed shops.

Wed Mar 30, 2011 7:53 am

insyncro wrote: ALIKA T3 wrote: Would exhaust wrap prevent some damage to hot and cold cycling??

. . . . .
It works extremely well....IF and only IF....the parts are brand new, high quality wrap is used, stainless steel tie wraps secure it in place and high temp. spray sealant is applied to the wrap on both sides before it is wrapped.
. . . . .

Header repairs have just become part of regular maintenance. Last spring I had a massive 3" crack wrapping around the collector below my turbo. Took the header off, and found a couple more cracks and had them welded as well as a hole that had never been welded at all. Also, I decided I'd try wrapping the header and the downpipe thinking that might help with issue caused by heat cycling. One benefit of wrap is it will make the exhaust a little quieter also, but with a questionable header . . . . . Anyway, all was good -- for about six months until I heard the tell-tale sound of an exhaust leak. Took the header off again, found 4 more cracks.

Funny thing here is that, originally the header was a nearly impossible to fit on the motor. I practically dislocated my shoulder trying to get it to fit. Happily, with each successive repair, the fitment improves. Last time, it slid right onto the motor. The SC headers are notorious for QC and fitment issues. When I had it off for the first round of repairs, I ground the flanges flat -- they were sent from SC with about 1/16" concave surface. That helped sealing at the heads and there was far less struggle to get the header back on the motor. For the second round, I didn't bother with the wrap since it's so expensive and welding repairs are becoming almost as frequent as oil changes.

Marc