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Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:01 am

I bought an '86 Vanagon GL with 116K miles over the Memorial Day weekend, from the original owner. The car had gotten very little use (no more than 500 miles/year) for about the past 5 years; and was garage-kept most or all of its life.

Three days and less than 25 miles after my purchase, the engine seized during a 'test commute' to work, and is now undergoing a total rebuild. The shop doing the work is a trusted nearby foreign car shop that has been working on my Italian cars (Fiats, Alfas, and a Lancia) for years, but has little or no experience with Vanagons other than that one of their mechanics owns one.

As you might guess, I'm pissed off about having to essentially double the investment in my Vanagon right off the bat, but I'm trying to rationalize the blown motor with the argument that (a) at 100K miles even a well-maintained Wasserboxer motor is probably shot or close to it; and (b) five years of near-inactivity are bad for any engine, especially one with the known design flaws of the VW motor.

Comments?

Danke,
Dave Spiegelthal
Centreville, Virginia

Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:10 am

I think you're way off base here. Do some research, and aside from the head gasket issue, the wasserboxer is a reliable power plant. The problem you likely experienced is from lack of proper maintenance. Did you pay to have a pre-purchase inspection done and a leak down test on the motor prior to buying? I bet not or you would have seen some issues.

Don't blame the engine, blame the owners.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:11 am

They aren't THAT bad.
100k is when these need new head gaskets. They are good for awhile after that. 150-160 and you start worrying about rods and bearings and oil pressure.
Seizing at 100 seems odd.
I would wager 500 miles/year is close to average for those of us with campers.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:21 am

a couple of questions here

- do you have any previous experience with VW vanagon WBX before the purchase?

- did you do some kind of research/read on WBX engine prior to the purchase?

there is a wide range of opinion on WBX engine.

you said:

Quote: Three days and less than 25 miles after my purchase, the engine seized during a 'test commute' to work

I think that any engine will seize if there's no proper lubrication (lack of oil)..

I am sorry to hear your problem but now it's up to you to fix it and keep it or sell it and find another vehicle...

Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:22 am

I agree with PDXWesty. Don't blame the engine. I'm not an expert on the waterboxer, so won't even guess on the cause of it seizing. But just because the engine only has 116k miles, doesn't mean there aren't old parts (gaskets, etc) that need replaced.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:23 am

Mine needed a new water pump at 110,000 miles. Had to replace the alternator at 150,000 miles. Head leaked at 220,000 miles. That piece of junk was replaced with a similar piece of junk that will probably only last another 200K.

Seriously (preceding was sort of serious & all true) a seized engine is not the normal cause of death for these engines and suggests something bad was happening (low oil pressure, major overheating, etc) that perhaps wasn't revealed by the limited gauge & warning light set-up.

I do not think I would want to try a rebuild with a shop that has no experience with this engine. Up to you of course and perhaps they are giving you a very good deal and will do the duee diligence to get it right, but there are a couple of sources of crated rebuilds that benefit from have done a great many of them.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:37 am

Some background (in my own defense), if I may:

1) I'm a former air-cooled Vanagon owner, an '83 I bought new and drove for 10 years and 120K miles (including a rebuilt engine at 95K after melting a piston).

2) I did not get a pre-purchase inspection, though maybe I should have, because:
-- I'm not aware of any local shops familiar with the vehicle, that I know and trust;
-- I'm a fairly competent backyard mechanic, so have some feel for how these things should work;
-- Other than very noisy lifters, the car ran very well in the short time I drove it. I assumed the valve clearances needed adjusting and so I had even ordered valve cover gaskets and researched the adjustment procedure (here at Samba and elsewhere) before paying for the vehicle, with the idea that I would adjust the valves ASAP.
-- Previous owner had all service and maintenance records since new, which I read in detail prior to signing the dotted line. My only concern, which I mentioned to the PO, was the apparent lack of a valve adjustment during the 25 years. His reply was that his favorite shop specialized in VWs and always did "whatever was needed".
-- No symptoms prior to the failure. No oil pressure light, no overheating, no funny smells, nothing. I had driven only about 7 miles from home when the engine failed without warning while I was accelerating from a stoplight.

3) I did a lot of research on this car and its engine before buying, including the purchase of three service manuals (Bentley, Haynes and Brooklands), which I've partly read through.

3) Between the MANY horror stories circulating the Internet about the Wasserboxer, plus the numerous engine conversions available (why?), you can't blame me for being skeptical about the durability of the motor!

Tue Jul 05, 2011 12:37 pm

dspieg wrote:
Three days and less than 25 miles after my purchase, the engine seized during a 'test commute' to work, and is now undergoing a total rebuild.

Bummer. :(

As for how "bad" the motor is:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=431525
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=469469

dspieg wrote: plus the numerous engine conversions available (why?)

More horsepower, for one thing. :wink:

Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:21 pm

Did anyone check to be sure the engine was indeed seized? Is it locked up...completely? It can be hard to tell for sure..the crank is hard to spin with the sheet metal in the way.

The reason I ask..a seized engine would be very unusual. Could be..just you want to make sure.

The noisy lifters could be a clue..little or no oil pressure. More likely..they just didn't pump up after sitting so long.

Follow the repair shop and inspect your damaged parts, as you have committed to get it rebuilt. Pictures would be interesting.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 1:23 pm

dspieg wrote: Wasserboxer, plus the numerous engine conversions available (why?), !

Those of us with campers who live in mountainous states feel the need for more power. Remember, the camper thing is aftermarket so it's beyond the intial design parameters for the motor. Same for the Syncro. Not aftermarket, but an afterthought that was initially not intended for market and post dates the motor by several years.

That, and an engine conversion is only a little more expensive than a new WBX.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:02 pm

Actually a sitting engine if not properly "Pickled" is more prone to problems than a "daily" driver. These engines were an improvement in reliabilty over their early counterpart the 2.0 air cooled which was a decent engine.

You should have the shop do an autopsy and tell you why it seized. It is possible, an injector stuck open and filled a cylinder with fuel. This would cause the engine to appear siezed, but could also bend a rod and you'd need to tear into the engine. The other possibility is either a rod or main bearing siezed to the crank. Either way, it is a bummer, but just like buying an outboard, you really are just buying the hull. The engine is good for a boat anchor. Hopefully you got a good deal on your vanagon "hull". You can expect to most likely redo the entire brake system once you get in running and probably tires. The list will go on and is never really done.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:05 pm

dspieg wrote: Comments?

Danke,
Dave Spiegelthal
Centreville, Virginia
It seized?
With no lights warning... or buzzer alarm?

I owned a Fiat Spider for a few years.. Its hard to compare the two, even though at the time I had the Fiat, I also owned an 1981 aircooled Vanagon Westy..

But in terms of maintenance to miles? My 1989 2.1 WBXer is a diehard compared to that little Fiat.
The Fiat was great fun... no doubt.. but it was contantly asking for attention.
The 2.1WBXer.. not so much attention.

Be warned. A rebuilt engine is just the tip of the iceberg. Your 20+ yr old Vanagon still needs lots of work to get it relaible.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:07 pm

AtlasShrugged wrote: "Did anyone check to be sure the engine was indeed seized? Is it locked up...completely? It can be hard to tell for sure..the crank is hard to spin with the sheet metal in the way.
The reason I ask..a seized engine would be very unusual. Could be..just you want to make sure.
The noisy lifters could be a clue..little or no oil pressure. More likely..they just didn't pump up after sitting so long. "

The shop told me the engine was seized when the tow truck brought the Vanagon in, they couldn't turn the motor more than 30 degrees or so in either direction. BTW the front guy at the shop is my neighbor and friend, and among other things races a Formula Vee and a Datsun 510, so I'm getting the straight skinny. From what they could tell (as translated through my GarbleFilter), it looked to them like perhaps a pushrod broke or slipped off a rocker, maybe the valve hit the piston (I take it this is an interference engine?), at any rate some broken metal got into a cylinder and jammed the piston. Also did some damage to the case itself, so I'll be needing a new block as well as heads :(

As for the lifters not pumping up, when I test-drove the Vanagon for the first time, with the PO sitting shotgun, we drove for at least 20 minutes and the lifter noise was there the entire time. Drove the car for about 10-15 minutes twice thereafter (the third time being the Seizure Incident) and the lifter noise still didn't go away. If this were due to low oil pressure shouldn't the oil pressure idiot light have alarmed? The PO, by the way, didn't think the valves sounded noisy, but I believe he was either half-deaf or BS'ing me because they sure seemed loud to my ears.

Yes, I've read all the threads on the forum here about this engine, some in praise (a bit defensive-sounding at times), some critical. And as I asked before, if it's such a fine engine why have so many owners forked over big bucks for conversions? I can tell you (as a Subaru Legacy wagon owner) that nobody would think of putting a WBX motor in a Subaru!

Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:14 pm

The 2.1 WBX in my '86 Westy has over 258,000 miles on it. Three owners, including me. This year I have put over 4000 miles on it through the mountains, the desert, and up and down into the foothills here in the Front Range west of Denver.

Runs like a top.

I was going to put a Subaru in it next year, but I am strongly considering waiting until something serious actually goes wrong with the engine, and then putting a GoWesty refurb WBX right back in.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:17 pm

People do conversions simply because they want more power. Some do it because they want the feel of a more modern car. Some of us are content with slow speed and feel it's more about the journey and how you get there, not how fast. 10+ years with a well maintained WBX and I have no complaints.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:20 pm

dspieg wrote: I can tell you (as a Subaru Legacy wagon owner) that nobody would think of putting a WBX motor in a Subaru!

The Subaru motor IS a water boxer, plus, you already have the perfect engine and parts car for a conversion! How lucky can a backyard mechanic be?
(Portions of this message have been run through the GarbleFiter)

Tue Jul 05, 2011 2:32 pm

dspieg wrote: AtlasShrugged wrote: "Did anyone check to be sure the engine was indeed seized? Is it locked up...completely? It can be hard to tell for sure..the crank is hard to spin with the sheet metal in the way.
The reason I ask..a seized engine would be very unusual. Could be..just you want to make sure.
The noisy lifters could be a clue..little or no oil pressure. More likely..they just didn't pump up after sitting so long. "

The shop told me the engine was seized when the tow truck brought the Vanagon in, they couldn't turn the motor more than 30 degrees or so in either direction. BTW the front guy at the shop is my neighbor and friend, and among other things races a Formula Vee and a Datsun 510, so I'm getting the straight skinny. From what they could tell (as translated through my GarbleFilter), it looked to them like perhaps a pushrod broke or slipped off a rocker, maybe the valve hit the piston (I take it this is an interference engine?), at any rate some broken metal got into a cylinder and jammed the piston. Also did some damage to the case itself, so I'll be needing a new block as well as heads :(

As for the lifters not pumping up, when I test-drove the Vanagon for the first time, with the PO sitting shotgun, we drove for at least 20 minutes and the lifter noise was there the entire time. Drove the car for about 10-15 minutes twice thereafter (the third time being the Seizure Incident) and the lifter noise still didn't go away. If this were due to low oil pressure shouldn't the oil pressure idiot light have alarmed? The PO, by the way, didn't think the valves sounded noisy, but I believe he was either half-deaf or BS'ing me because they sure seemed loud to my ears.

Yes, I've read all the threads on the forum here about this engine, some in praise (a bit defensive-sounding at times), some critical. And as I asked before, if it's such a fine engine why have so many owners forked over big bucks for conversions? I can tell you (as a Subaru Legacy wagon owner) that nobody would think of putting a WBX motor in a Subaru!

The 30 degree thing is important...it could mean the crank is OK..and the engine swallowed a valve..maybe..or a rod bearing came apart.

Maybe the valves were sticking in the guides?

Disassembly will be interesting.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:39 pm

I have a 1.9L WBX with just about 210k miles on it. That van is definitely an adventure.

It's a pretty common thing for people to want more power. It seems strange to choose less over more, if given the choice.

Keep blowin' down the road,

-Zen

Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:56 pm

The WBX is decent until it isn't- then things can get ugly. The big question in front of you now is stock, conversion or sell- the answer depends on the owner.
Unfortunately the internal damage does render you with a unbuildable core. It sounds like a rod went bad on you- anything fragged in the bottom end makes the motor useless.
Hopefully things work out better for you with the van.

Tue Jul 05, 2011 4:06 pm

The WBX is a simply dreadful motor; I mean, who wants to put up with just 90 amps these days?