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Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:09 pm

Just a little fun with the nomenclature issue relating to calling a powerplant a motor vs. an engine.

Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:14 pm

Zeitgeist 13 wrote: Just a little fun with the nomenclature issue relating to calling a powerplant a motor vs. an engine.

So informative, I'm still amazed by your writing.

Tue Oct 18, 2011 10:55 am

Well, it's been four months since my newly-acquired '86 Vanagon GL's engine self-destructed, and the car is back from the favorite local shop with its rebuilt engine, followed by a paint job at the local MAACO.

The autopsy was not definitive, but the shop's best guess (if I heard them correctly) is that a pushrod slipped off a rocker, the valve hit a piston, and the piston shattered and send some metal chunks around the case. So, along with the usual stuff, I had to locate a good used case as the original was damaged internally beyond repair.

Got new Spanish AMC heads, threw away the valves it came with (as recommended here on Samba, thanks guys!), new pistons/rings and liners, new cam and crank bearings, and replaced the connecting rod stretch bolts with the older-style non-stretch ones (again on the recommendation of the wise Sambisti). Clutch was replaced too.

I've now put about 300 miles on the rebuilt engine and changed the oil once with 15W-50 conventional. Everything seems fine. Engine sounds really nice and runs smoothly, the power and torque are acceptable, and I even got 20 mpg in mixed highway and stop-and-go driving. I have been following the recommended break-in procedure of constantly varying the engine speed, and not getting too high in rpm (I've just touched 4400 a couple of times and generally keep it below 4200 during acceleration).

The bad news? Total cost was over $6K. Something like $2400 in parts, and 40 hrs. labor at $100/hr. (the going rate in the expensive area I live in, Northern Virginia).

Tue Oct 18, 2011 11:56 am

I guess I won't be using THAT shop when I need to get my engine replaced. (then again, I have no idea if that is expensive for what you had done).

What color is your van? Is it just a tintop? I live just down the road, I'll keep a look out for it

Tue Oct 18, 2011 1:23 pm

The shop I used, as I'd mentioned in one of my early posts, has been working for many years on a variety of European (and some Japanese) cars, but VWs are not very familiar to them, and Vanagons are completely new. I was aware of this going into the job, but (a) I'm friends with the shop's "front desk guy" (he's my neighbor), and (b) I was in sort of a bind because the car died as I was driving into work so I had to have it towed somewhere nearby. Anyway, I was psychologically prepared to pay for some "learning curve" by the shop -- no doubt that accounts for part of the labor cost. The upside is that I now have a known, local 'go-to' shop that is familiar with the Vanagon and will be there if I need them in the future.

For my local fellow NOVA Vanagoners (NOVAnagoners?), the beast is a flat top '86 GL, 2wd, robin's-egg blue with the stock 14" steel wheels painted silver and chrome dog dish VW hubcaps. I've been told it looks pretty good!

Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:01 pm

The original poster here, with a followup report:

It's been about three months since I got the 2.1 waterboxer motor of my '87 GL rebuilt by my favorite local imported car repair shop. As previously noted, this was their first-ever Vanagon job. I provided them with some assistance in the form of lending them my Bentley manuals, passing along a few tech tips and parts suggestions (mainly heisted from right here on Samba), and by acquiring a few parts they had trouble finding (thanks again to Alaric for his block!).

I now have over 2000 trouble-free miles on the rebuilt engine, it runs perfectly, sounds and feels strong, and gets about 18 mpg city / 21 mpg highway (we're talking about a passenger van, 2wd, manual transmission). It is completely stock other than a mysteriously hollow catalytic converter (dunno how that happened, but in my state vehicles 25 years old or older are exempt from emissions inspections, so it's OK).

The bottom line: Almost 4 months in the shop, and just over $6K in parts and labor. This includes a new clutch, all new hoses, and A/C recharge along with the engine rebuild. The rebuild included AMC heads and (throwing away the valves that came with the heads) German valves; plus the non-stretching con rod bolts. Wouldn't have known about those things without this forum!

So even though I'm still getting over the sticker shock (and paying off the credit card people), I'm very happy with the Vanagon, it's a pleasure to drive and I hope to get many years and miles out of this engine.

Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:03 pm

Very good to hear. Enjoy logging on some miles. :)

Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:12 pm

Sweet....enjoy

Fri Feb 10, 2012 11:50 am

It's now about 4 months and 3K miles since the engine rebuild on my '86 tin-top was done. As reported in my most recent post, the Vanagon was running perfectly. While driving to lunch this past Thursday, accelerating onto a side street I felt a little stumble, then started hearing a knocking/hammering noise, so I immediately turned around and drove home (about 5 miles away). On the way, the oil pressure light and warning horn came on. Barely got the car home and into my driveway, called the tow truck, and had it brought back to the shop which this past summer/fall had spent four months and charged me over $6K to rebuild the motor.

As luck would I have it, I'm just out of the shop's warranty period (which is 4K miles and 3 months -- so I'm within mileage but out calendar-wise). The shop's front guy (my friend/neighbor) says the shop will not take responsibility for all repair costs, but will consider my offer to go halfsies with them. Woohoo.

Got the word this morning that #3 rod bearing is ruined. They have no idea why yet. They say the rest of the engine internally is perfect.

I thought the bottom end of the Wasserboxer was nearly bulletproof?

And maybe the title of my original post wasn't so far off-base, eh? I'm starting to wish I had sprung for a Subaru conversion, as meanwhile, my 2001 Legacy GT wagon with about the same mileage as the Vanagon has had its FIRST major service, the scheduled timing belt/pulleys/water pump replacement, all of which cost me about $650 -- and the removed parts look like they'd be good for at least another 50K miles. Sorry folks, but you can't tell me that the Wasserboxer is a fundamentally good motor. It isn't. I still maintain that something like the Subaru flat four is the engine that VW should have built for the Vanagon.

Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:04 pm

Unless you did not maintain oil and coolant in the engine they should honor much more than they are. They may be your favorite shop but they are doing you no favors. Just because you are one month over the warranty should not get them off the hook if they are honest about the situation. That rebuild should have been good for many 10s of thousand miles, not just over three thousand.

If it was mine I'd stay away from having them do anything more on my $.

I'm not sure if Alaric rebuilds the WBX but he is local to you and very good and fair to deal with.

Hope it works out for you.

Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:20 pm

Unfortunately I didn't know about Alaric when I first got into the rebuild. He did, in fact, supply the block (case) used by my shop.

You are right that the shop should stand behind their work. Even though I've been bringing my various old Italian cars (Fiats and Alfas) to them for a number of years, I've found their work to be getting sloppier and sloppier even while their prices have been going up steadily, so I will no longer use them for any of my cars nor recommend their services to anybody. Sad for me, because they're relatively near my house and over the years I've become friends with their chief mechanic/co-owner and some of the other guys there. Very disappointing!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:27 pm

To answer the original question & title of the thread:
"Just as bad as the last one who worked on it"

Good luck with your van...

Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:31 pm

It's surely a bummer, but what you've experienced has nothing to do with the design of the WBX, and has everything to do with parts and/or assembly of your "rebuilt" engine. Many of us have original WBX engines well into the 200K + territory with no major services completed; that's solidly in the "good engine" category by most definitions. Sour grapes is understandable, but please try to maintain some perspective.

Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:51 pm

In my mind, a pretty good indication as to whether or not an engine is a "good engine" is the number of different vehicles and models that the engine was used in. The Ford Zetec was used extensively world wide in a wide range of vehicles, the Subaru 2.2's and 2.5's have and are being used extensively across a wide range of Subaru vehicles. The VW in line 4 engines, both gas and diesel have been used extensively for years across many many models. These and others are "world engines" Their value os dependable power plants has been established on the world stage over decades.
The waterboxer engine was used only in the VW vanagon from the years 83 1/2 to '91. And, even at that, there were about the same number of vanagons produced with the VW in line 4 diesel engines and sold world wide - well, other than in N. America - as there were vanagons produced with wbx'rs. So, I guess one could say that the vanagons were, in fact available with a world class engine, it however was the 1.6 TD JX engine, not the waterboxer.

Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:03 pm

I was referring to its basic design integrity of the WBX. I'm not a fan of the engine, and have stated numerous times that VW should've just run with their tried and tested 4/5 cyl. inline engines. But back to the point I was making. The WBX has a few flaws, but other than the stretch bolts in the 2.1, the bottom ends are quite stout. The OP's bottom end apparently suffered a catastrophic failure, and I don't think for a minute that it was due to any shortcomings in the inherent design.

Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:57 pm

Thanks for all your thoughtful replies, and I apologize for the negativism in my posts -- but I hope you can understand that right now I'm not feeling real good about the WBX engine, given my experiences these past 6 months.

By the way, when the shop did the rebuild I fed them all sorts of good info found here on Samba (and elsewhere) about such things as AMC heads (but discarding the supplied valves and using German valves instead), discarding the stretch-type con rod bolts and using the older-style bolts, etc. Supposedly they did all the right things, which is one reason I'm so frustrated! If they in fact did everything the wise Samba heads have recommended (as they claim to have done) and STILL the bottom end broke at 3K miles, then how will I ever be able to trust my Vanagon?

Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:00 pm

Completely understandable. I bought my Syncro with a 2.2WBX in it and it runs great (when it does run). About 6 years ago one of the POs blew the engine in Bishop and had a shop up there rebuild it as a 2.2 for about $6k. I would never pay that much for a WBX. NEVER! What a joke. But they did do a great job. It runs strong and hasn't failed mechanically (yet). The block is still solid. Now the problem is the 25+ year old fuel injection and emissions. It starts getting something similar to Vanagon Syndrome on long drives. My exhaust is falling apart and rusting away. A completely new CA legal system from GW is over $1300. I'll need that to pass smog. Sure you can buy a new block from GW, but it won't fix all the other expensive odds and ends. What's the point of taking a shower if you're just going to put dirty clothes back on? Instead of dumping all this money into the WBX I would be better off just saving for my EJ22 swap. My 2WD has an EJ22 and it's amazing. Outfront Motorsports built my long block for about $1500. Much better than $6k. Am I saying the WBX is completely worthless? No. It's just not the economical or practical answer for me. I just can't afford a $1300 exhaust system, $6k block, $400 ECU, $300 AFM, NLA this and that, blah, blah, blah... The WBX is reliable engine if you can afford to maintain it properly.

Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:18 pm

I reread all of your posts and I may be wrong, but in a shop the person that was rebuilding the engine forgot to install the rod and bearing cap correctly. The reason I said this is I have been in shops when a person is called away for some other job and stops in the middle. If the rod in number 3 caused the problem then why, was it the parts, was the install wrong? You need to find out! I think the repair of an engine that is 30 days out or 1000 miles over should be repair at the shop at their cost!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 3:33 pm

Sad to hear of your problems with the WBX. I pulled mine out at 160K miles. The bores still had hone marks in them and the crank was perfect. New bearings, rods rebuilt, rings, new heads, oil pump, water pump, lifters, etc. Did it myself and not too expensive. I hope for another 160!

Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:03 pm

One of our Vanagon's ( 1987 Wolfsburg) has over 240000 miles on it. It is the original motor. The heads have never been done. I can verify the last 13 years. Suzi is the second owner and has raised her four children in it. (previous a 71 van)She still is in touch with the original owner. The original owner never had any work done to it either. I have just finished retiring it from my everyday work van and we are giving it to her daughter. She likes to surf and camp also. It is still running strong. Four years ago I bought a 1987 with a country homes top on it for a parts van. I put the top on my Syncro. I decided to use this for a work van. I bought a hi top (Fiberine) for it. This van runs like a bat out of !!!!!!.
So my opinion on the Vanagon motor is at the Top.

Have Fun, David C