TheSamba.com :: View topic - Bought 85 Joker Jubilee to drive home from Chile, now dead.

Tue Dec 31, 2013 12:07 pm

ben_in_bus wrote: Hello All.

Thanks for your advice and suggestions. My mechanic has now completed his diagnosis and I have information and pictures to share as well as more questions for you. As a reminder:

-1985 Joker Jubilee,
-1.9L DG engine, 5 speed ABN transmission
-Bought and 6 hours later leaked coolant and oil during highway driving. Pulled over as soon as white smoke was spotted.
-Our goal is to repair and restore the vehicle to a sufficient quality that we can drive home from Chile to the USA over three months (May-Aug, 2014)

The mechanic took off the heads and valve covers to diagnose and in summary found that the lips of the place where the cylinder mates with the head is pitted, dented and likely not able to make a good seal with the cylinders. Interestingly, there was little corrosion around water jacket seal ('head gasket') as many others have reported. The mechanic suggest that this cumulative damage would be tough to repair by machining and that the extent of corrosion in the cooling system is extensive. He suggests that the motor has not been well cared for (low coolant, water creating scale, etc.). As a consequence, it is like a time-bomb and that even if we fix the heads and reseal the system, there will likely be another failure.

The big questions I now have are:
-Given what we now know, is there good reason to go through the process of restoring this engine? Are the issues here easily resolved? I worry that I might be able to get this running again, but because of the state of the other parts of the motor/cooling system, there are likely to be future issues.
-From my research, there are no experts in vanagon engine replacements in Chile. I have heard from other travelers that there are good builders in Peru, but that is too far for me to tow the vehicle. Though my mechanic is competent and confident with Subarus, he has a back-yard shop and does not like messing with electrical. This suggests that a subaru replacement won't work. I think I could find a zetech and get a bostig kit shipped down...but this will take time, months of time. Is replacement still the best option? If dependability over the long drive home is a priority, I think that I need to go Bostig and replace the current cooling system. Thoughts?

(Here are the photos and comments)

During the diagnosis, the mechanic snapped the threaded tips off these long screws (one in the blue bin). The tip are still inside the motor and he worries that they will be hard to extract? Any advice or experience with this?

You can see the scale and oil inside the block once the seal was breached. The mechanic worries that there might be other problems deeper inside that he has not yet identified. Here are rear and forward images of the two cylinders.

Here are images of the head with the damage around the cylinder-mating lip. Note the dents around the edge. Are these from corosion or a botched reassembly some time back? Note that there is little pitting on the flat surfaces of the head.

As a previous poster asked, here is an image of the ceramic additive (LiquiMolly) that the PO used. Maybe he used this because he know that there were problems brewing.

If you are even thinking about a possible bostig conversion, would call them directly very soon and ask about how long it would take for them to get you a kit. I know that a friend of mine found it took a LOT longer to get the complete kit than he anticipated, with parts trickling in over many weeks time. I don't think they have kits just sitting on a shelf in one big box ready to go. Plus you've got international shipping.

Cost-wise, you will be in around $10k doing a bostig plus cooling system refresh.

Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:57 pm

I suggest that if your mech is subaru familiar, and if you have access to a decent low mileage subaru 2.5 or 2.2 even, then contact Tom Shiels re the electrical work/harness http://subaruvanagon.com/ . The conversion bits (many) are available through him or Smallcar.
If your subaru mech can clean up the front of the engine and you source and get the conversion bits from eg Smallcar, the harness done by Tom - and discuss with him the other specific special items he has - eg thermostat housing, etc - you could have the van on the road fairly quickly.
Look at the Smallcar site for their 2.5conversion kit - its pretty complete and the bellhousing makes a nice install.
I have a mix of Smallcar and Tom Shiels bits in my conversion - works great!! Feel free to PM me if you'd like more info.
J

Tue Dec 31, 2013 2:11 pm

What about the engine out of a Brazilian Kombi? Outside of having to build a doghouse in the rear deck for it, it might be pretty close to a direct bolt in. No idea how available such might be where you are at though.

Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:48 pm

This might be your answer http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1567495

Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:04 pm

I see nothing that would indicate anything other than a normal engine cylinder n head reseal kit is needed. All engines look like hell when you open them up and yours doesn't look bad. I can always tell when a tech is angling for more work such as complete component replacement - they purposely don't clean scrape and wipe things off so a non tech owner will take one glance at the crusty, oil covered and dirt laden lump of unfamiliar iron and quickly agree " yeah, let's just replace the whole outdrive/engine/snowblower/generator/transmission. (Pick one)

I would accept that head bolts routinely break on these engines and that you'll pay extra for those extractions, and have the rings on the BOTTOM of the cylinders replaced as well as the heads revealed. I mention the bottom because though it is the normal and proper procedure for a head gasket job, techs love tomskipmthis part and toss those O rings in the trash. So I would find someone who will merely do a quality NORMAL head reseal on this engine. These are tough little engines. The head and valves should be tested for good valve sealing - all part of a normal head reseal.

DougM

Tue Dec 31, 2013 5:12 pm

I am with Idaho on this one also. Fix that sucker. Get new studs as needed, clean it all up and replace the bad stuff. Easy business. You would not believe how crusty my Canadian Doka engine looks in places. Runs like a champ.
Tony

Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:04 am

Hello Team Samba.
Thanks for all the encouragement. I am swinging toward a motor rebuild but before I commit to that, I would love to have a few questions answered.

-The mechanic had to snap off two of the studs that hold the head on. (the two in the rear, on the right side) How much of a problem is this...do I need a whole new block or can these be retrieved without having to dig out the thing. Is this a 'show-stopper?'

-Is there a good thread that you can point me to for how to do a new gasket job? Is there a part's list of typical things to buy before starting? As I am in Chile, South America, I can't just run to the store to pick up a part.

-How long does this process typically take? There are no mechanics here that I know of with explicit VW waterboxer experience.

-The photos in my posts above show the heads as having dents and corrosion close to the place where the cylinder connects. Am I fooling myself that I can re-use these heads? Take a look at the images.

-From the beginning I wanted to repair the engine as everything was running well up to the leak. It seems a shame to ditch the engine if it is repairable. Looking more into the bostig I am extremely impressed with their product, but importing anything into Chile valued at more than $1000 requires me to hire a professional customs agent to do the transaction. This further complicates any replacement (bostig or subaru). I do need the engine to be robust enough to drive the ~10,000 rough miles back north to the states...am I fooling myself to expect this from this engine?

Thanks again Samba gurus. I am learning so much here everyday.

Take care,
Ben

Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:46 am

ben_in_bus wrote:

-The mechanic had to snap off two of the studs that hold the head on. (the two in the rear, on the right side) How much of a problem is this...do I need a whole new block or can these be retrieved without having to dig out the thing. Is this a 'show-stopper?'

-Is there a good thread that you can point me to for how to do a new gasket job? Is there a part's list of typical things to buy before starting? As I am in Chile, South America, I can't just run to the store to pick up a part.

-How long does this process typically take? There are no mechanics here that I know of with explicit VW waterboxer experience.

Am I fooling myself that I can re-use these heads? I do need the engine to be robust enough to drive the ~10,000 rough miles back north to the states...am I fooling myself to expect this from this engine?
Ben

I (a non professional wrench) replaced my head gaskets this winter.

Your situation, like life; comes down to time and money. How much of each can you throw into this?

- The case will need to be split to fix those broken studs. That leads to questions such as
new bearings, case boring, new rods, etc. that might be a big job for an amateur (like me).
- you can buy new heads and a gasket kit and fix the top end.
Heads are $500 or so a piece, so order one at a time! 8)
Here is a site on the head work.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=286798

So you could fix it....but you'll need a skilled shop to fix those studs,
and time to get parts from abroad and time and place to install them.
The heads would take you a few days if you did it yourself.
At least it's summer in Chile, working outside here is not on.

If the motor was running well before, you could do all this and run
it for years. I'd burn off a 1000 miles locally before heading north!!!

But the Samba is here to help!!!!

Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:49 am

Thanks for the advice.
Sounds like the broken studs are going to be a major issue. Scary.
Ben

Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:11 am

Summers420us wrote: It sounds as if your mechanic is not interested in repairing your current engine. What is he suggesting?

Have you looked for any VeeDub Clubs in your area? Perhaps a replacement motor is sitting in someone's nearby garage...

All is not lost, hang in there. It is a beautiful van and once you get this sorted you will be sure to have many happy miles. :bay_blue: X-2 Go used. For now less $ less time win win. Find a good used motor put it in and go. When you get home, then is time to do a engine swap! :D Better yet when you get home , then put in a 10 cent engine! :shock:

Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:18 am

joseph928 wrote: Summers420us wrote: It sounds as if your mechanic is not interested in repairing your current engine. What is he suggesting?

Have you looked for any VeeDub Clubs in your area? Perhaps a replacement motor is sitting in someone's nearby garage...

All is not lost, hang in there. It is a beautiful van and once you get this sorted you will be sure to have many happy miles. :bay_blue: X-2 Go used. For now less $ less time win win. Find a good used motor put it in and go. When you get home, then is time to do a engine swap! :D

X3!

Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:54 pm

ben_in_bus wrote:

The mechanic took off the heads and valve covers to diagnose and in summary found that the lips of the place where the cylinder mates with the head is pitted, dented and likely not able to make a good seal with the cylinders. .... He suggests that the motor has not been well cared for

Did someone added sealant between the RH (in image) cylinder and head? Like if they had to do that, maybe that engine wasn't that good when that work was done? At this point, if it were me, I'd be leaning towards a known good used engine. But....

.... cost to ship an engine to where you are may negate that?

Nice use of an old oil jug!

Neil.

Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:56 pm

Sealant is supposed to be there - between rubber water jacket seal and head. This engine looks normal.

Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:28 pm

IdahoDoug wrote: Sealant is supposed to be there - between rubber water jacket seal and head. This engine looks normal.

Hey Doug. For sure. Yes. Was referring to what may be a remnant of sealant, on lip at head, where cylinder meets the head. Like someone used sealant in conjunction with the O-ring and metal ring (P 15.22 Bentley)

Neil.

Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:44 pm

Vanagon Nut wrote: IdahoDoug wrote: Sealant is supposed to be there - between rubber water jacket seal and head. This engine looks normal.

Hey Doug. For sure. Yes. Was referring to what may be a remnant of sealant, on lip at head, where cylinder meets the head. Like someone used sealant in conjunction with the O-ring and metal ring (P 15.22 Bentley)

Are you referencing the stuff at 12:00 on the right side of the head?

Thu Jan 02, 2014 6:51 pm

Neil,

Gotcha. See that. Would be more likely it's from crud falling all over it during disassembly.

Thu Jan 02, 2014 7:27 pm

mariusstrom wrote: Vanagon Nut wrote: .....Was referring to what may be a remnant of sealant, on lip at head,

Are you referencing the stuff at 12:00 on the right side of the head?

Hey Marius. Yes. The stuff @ 12:00 on RH portion of head where cylinder seats.

Gotcha Doug. Was just wondering aloud, thinking of the OP's options. i.e. if the motor was so bunged up that a PO had to use sealant there to help the cylinder seal to head (unlikely), it might be an indicator that it's not worth fixing.

Neil.

Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:32 pm

I don't know the answer to this, but one thing I would consider when deciding on an engine is which one will be easy to fix and find replacement parts when I'm traveling through South America, Central America and Mexico.

Chances are you're not going to make it all the way back to the US without having to visit a garage (or two).

Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:36 pm

giller wrote: I don't know the answer to this, but one thing I would consider when deciding on an engine is which one will be easy to fix and find replacement parts when I'm traveling through South America, Central America and Mexico.

Chances are you're not going to make it all the way back to the US without having to visit a garage (or two).

That is the key here. Exactly my thought. Even if the engine and peripherals were working fine before the van went down on his way to Concepcion, there is a good chance other things (coolant system, fuel, electrical, injection) will break down as you put thousand of miles on your way up north.

Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:37 pm

Neil,

Yeah the one issue that has to be sussed with eyes is if those odd dents change anything. No clue what's up with those but I would not expect them to extend down to head gasket surface. Hope all is well down there.